[Serious] Can a facepuller anchored to the MSE recreate the forward movement of a lefort 1, 2 or 3?

Slayerino

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dohbeep

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Face pulling doesn’t even work
 
retard

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Lefort iii, since when you pull on the anterior lower part of the maxilla and it moves forward it is still connected to all the rest of the maxilla and other facial bones like the zygos, so when you pull on part of it the others will be forced to follow since it’s all connected unlike a lefort i where it’s just sliced in half away from the rest of the maxilla/zygos and they aren’t connected anymore so they don’t follow, not to mention a facepuller will give upwards growth/CCW rotation to all bones including zygos where it seems when most people go through a lefort iii they only get forward growth but it remains downgrown where a facepuller angled upward should rotate every bone connected in the CCW direction
 
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Slayerino

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Lefort iii, since when you pull on the anterior lower part of the maxilla and it moves forward it is still connected to all the rest of the maxilla and other facial bones like the zygos, so when you pull on part of it the others will be forced to follow since it’s all connected unlike a lefort i where it’s just sliced in half away from the rest of the maxilla/zygos and they aren’t connected anymore so they don’t follow
So basically it's superior to a Lefort 1 and 2? Right? It's just slower, right?
 
Sergio-OMS

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Yes, it expands transversally. But can the face puller move forward the region involved in the lefort 1, 2 or 3?
It can, but not much, maybe 2 mm ? I’m talking about the MSE “plain” (with no osteotomies): doing a Le fort 1 cut reduces the resistance and allows for a more effective protraction. By the way, I’m referring to an actual Delaire’s facemask.
 
retard

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So basically it's superior to a Lefort 1 and 2? Right? It's just slower, right?
yes, probably better since it gives much better upwards growth too along as the same saggital growth (assuming you used it for long enough) a lefort would give but to all the facial bones a lefort iii would and possibly more, and if iirc a lefort relapses like 50% over a few years while this probably wouldn’t nearly as much
 
Slayerino

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It can, but not much, maybe 2 mm ? I’m talking about the MSE pain, with no osteotomies. Doing a Le fort 1 cut reduces the resistance and allows for a more effective protraction. By the way, I’m referring to an actual Delaire’s facemask.
Yes, I was thinking of using that exact facemask for 6 months 24/7. With a 2000grams of force. I think 2mm is really a conservative estimation. Maybe 5mm?
yes, probably better since it gives much better upwards growth too along as the same saggital growth (assuming you used it for long enough) a lefort would give but to all the facial bones a lefort iii would and possibly more, and if iirc a lefort relapses like 50% over a few years while this probably wouldn’t nearly as much
Can you give me some estimations of forward movement and force needed with the facepuller? Also do you think the displacement will be homogeneous or the displacement will gradually decrease(zygos) the more you go away from the bone anchors?
 
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GetThatBread

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possibly greater results than a LeFort 3 if you combine MSE with bone anchored FacePulling and MSDO. You can add minute protocols like supplementing and hard Mewing as the suture heals. The lower jaw can only follow so much after the forced expansion of the maxilla that was subjugated from the MSE. MSDO in combination with the MSE can widen the chin, expand the palate, increase the lateral protrusion of the zygos, create hollow cheeks and increase the IPD. you'll have sagittal growth with FacePulling for total 3D organic ("natural") expansion that no LeFort will be able to achieve ever.
Wtf if I'm 24 how effective is mse?
Ronald Ead was 29 and he had great results
 
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retard

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Yes, I was thinking of using that exact facemask for 6 months 24/7. With a 2000grams of force. I think 2mm is really a conservative estimation. Maybe 5mm?

Can you give me some estimations of forward movement and force needed with the facepuller? Also do you think the displacement will be homogeneous or the displacement will gradually decrease(zygos) the more you go away from the bone anchors?
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this was a simulation of the maxilla changes from pulling from a positive 30 degrees so probably movement similar to this, Im personally using 1 KG, as this is what all studies top out at for the high forces and because my facepuller applies a lot of forehead pressure and any higher than that will cause headaches that are too annoying to deal with for a long period of time, the displacement will probably be the same or similar throughout since the bones are literally sutured together and if the maxilla moves 3mm the cheekbones will also be forced to move 3 mm since they are anchored together, well this is assuming there isn’t some weird nuance to bone remodeling/elasticity that I’m not aware of
 
Slayerino

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this was a simulation of the maxilla changes from pulling from a positive 30 degrees so probably movement similar to this, Im personally using 1 KG, as this is what all studies top out at for the high forces and because my facepuller applies a lot of forehead pressure and any higher than that will cause headaches that are too annoying to deal with for a long period of time, the displacement will probably be the same or similar throughout since the bones are literally sutured together and if the maxilla moves 3mm the cheekbones will also be forced to move 3 mm since they are anchored together, well this is assuming there isn’t some weird nuance to bone remodeling/elasticity that I’m not aware of
Yes, what if you move the maxilla of 3mm, and the zygos will move only 1mm because they're far from the anchors and even though sutured with the maxilla, let's not forget they're sutured with the rest of the skull as well.
 
retard

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Yes, what if you move the maxilla of 3mm, and the zygos will move only 1mm because they're far from the anchors and even though sutured with the maxilla, let's not forget they're sutured with the rest of the skull as well.
1. The only way that scenario would be possible would be through extreme levels of elasticity, levels not possible in bone, if maxilla came forward 3 mm and zygos are connected and only move one, the bone would of had to stretch a ridiculous amount, not possible in any bone, certainly not dense post pubertal bone

2. The same forces on the zygos pulling them back by the other sutures is also being accounted for equally by the maxilla since the same sutures restricting zygo movement are interconnected to the maxilla via the zygomatic sutures meaning the same counter forces the maxilla has to deal with to come forward would be equal to the forces on the zygos meaning they would come forward equally

you assumed since the the other sutures pulling back on the zygos won’t also pull equally on the maxilla, but they will since the cheekbones transfers the same force equally to the maxilla
 
Slayerino

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1. The only way that scenario would be possible would be through extreme levels of elasticity, levels not possible in bone, if maxilla came forward 3 mm and zygos are connected and only move one, the bone would of had to stretch a ridiculous amount, not possible in any bone, certainly not dense post pubertal bone

2. The same forces on the zygos pulling them back by the other sutures is also being accounted for equally by the maxilla since the same sutures restricting zygo movement are interconnected to the maxilla via the zygomatic sutures meaning the same counter forces the maxilla has to deal with to come forward would be equal to the forces on the zygos meaning they would come forward equally

you assumed since the the other sutures pulling back on the zygos won’t also pull equally on the maxilla, but they will since the cheekbones transfers the same force equally to the maxilla
Holy shit! you're giving me hope. After the mse/msdo thing, I'm going to use this FP, I don't care about the chin retruding because I'll have the bsso afterwards anyway. It is perfect in this case, because I can really wear it for 24/7 without limiting my movements.
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GetThatBread

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this was a simulation of the maxilla changes from pulling from a positive 30 degrees so probably movement similar to this, Im personally using 1 KG, as this is what all studies top out at for the high forces and because my facepuller applies a lot of forehead pressure and any higher than that will cause headaches that are too annoying to deal with for a long period of time, the displacement will probably be the same or similar throughout since the bones are literally sutured together and if the maxilla moves 3mm the cheekbones will also be forced to move 3 mm since they are anchored together, well this is assuming there isn’t some weird nuance to bone remodeling/elasticity that I’m not aware of
Does this affect brow ridge? Since you stated that it gives a lot of forehead pressure
 
Slayerino

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Does this affect brow ridge? Since you stated that it gives a lot of forehead pressure
I'm not sure. I will have to make a personalized pad which is wider, I don't want to concentrate too much pressure on a small area. The risk of deformation is higher. So I'll make it with a shape that can covere my entire forehead, but the browridge. SO if it really pushes back the forehead, it'll increase the browridge. WIN-WIN
 
GetThatBread

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I'm not sure. I will have to make a personalized pad which is wider, I don't want to concentrate too much pressure on a small area. The risk of deformation is higher. So I'll make it with a shape that can covere my entire forehead, but the browridge. SO if it really pushes back the forehead, it'll increase the browridge. WIN-WIN
If you want drastic eye area results you need to add more force on the back/posterior third
 
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Yes, I was thinking of using that exact facemask for 6 months 24/7. With a 2000grams of force. I think 2mm is really a conservative estimation. Maybe 5mm?

Can you give me some estimations of forward movement and force needed with the facepuller? Also do you think the displacement will be homogeneous or the displacement will gradually decrease(zygos) the more you go away from the bone anchors?
Well, my philtrum is 20mm, of I had a 100% result I would use FM for reducing at least 5mm from downward to forward growth
 
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Does this affect brow ridge? Since you stated that it gives a lot of forehead pressure
the forehead pad on the bow is located above the browridge so it shouldn’t recess it, but possibly the frontal bone, once you stop wearing it even if it does change it will relapse by a large % after you stop wearing it so it should be ok
 
Slayerino

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Stupidest thing ive ever heard in my life tbh.

Mse widens the maxilla, it doesnt bring it forwards.
@Sergio-OMS
 
forwardgrowth

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MSE Definitely brings your maxilla forward and downward serious, THATS why you can have slightly gummy smile after MSE
 
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PM pics though and I’ll let you know if you need MSE. Everyone here thinks that they need MSE but they need to do morphs before they fuck up there harmony.
 
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curryslayerordeath

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PM pics though and I’ll let you know if you need MSE. Everyone here thinks that they need MSE but they need to do morphs before they fuck up there harmony.
Can I pm? I'm concerned about MSE messing up my ipd even more.
 
nelson

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Yeah bro, good luck.
 
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MSE Definitely brings your maxilla forward and downward serious, THATS why you can have slightly gummy smile after MSE
Did your maxilla get vertically longer from MSE? Didn't you also do facepull?
 
needsolution

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MSE + FP can create results of LF3
 
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