Frame vs Muscles

[Deleted member 8064]

What is more important for body? Overall genetic frame or building muscles?

 

[SoyGune]

Both are important.

 

[St. Wristcel]

Frame first. If you have weak bitch boy frame just build muscles to make it look better. If you have nice incel muscles but shit frame it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t accentuate anything, it’s like spraying perfume on a pile of shite.

 

[Deleted member 6789]

 

[Deleted member 8064]

Both are important.

Yes, but obviously one matters more than the other

 

[Deleted member 4332]

Both matter but Frame matters way more

 

[Entschuldigung]

With a good frame a small amount of muscles is already really good
with bad frame not even muscles can fix

 

[MisterMercedes]

Genetic frame. Guys with big arm/leg bones and broad shoulders don’t need to work out to be imposing and attractive. Framelets with muscle will still look small and frail with clothing on.

 

[Deleted member 8064]

With a good frame a small amount of muscles is already really food
with bad frame not even muscles can fix

My thoughts exactly

 

[Deleted member 8064]

bump

 

[0Ace0]

For majority of men, muscle will matter more, since guys do deltmaxxing and women cant really tell the difference between wide boned shoulders and wide delts
Only if the guy has noticeably wider bone structure will it matter

Shoulder slope/neck length would matter more from an aesthetic perspective

 

[Deleted member 8080]

i have a shit frame, it's so so over. as a framecel, i even get offended for asking a question like this, as the answer is so obvious

 

[Deleted member 4106]

 

[randomuser2407]

A manlet with muscle mass is still a manlet. But an average looking guy who is really tall will look a lot better with a very muscular ripped body than a skinny lanklet body, the difference is huge. While for the short guy, there isn't a huge difference in SMV, he will just look less nerdy and childish than the skinny manlets, but he will still look tiny, so although short guys should still get muscular, it won't put them in an entirely new league, it won't give them tons of Tinder matches. But a tall skinny guy who gets muscular can truly change his dating life if he gets muscular enough. Those who claim that women don't care about muscles clearly don't have big muscles themselves or they don't go out enough to notice the difference. No matter what you look like, getting muscular and ripped will still help you, but whether it will help a lot or just a little depends on your frame. Your frame is only dependent on your height, not any other factor. The reason why some guys have more muscle mass than others at the start is due to their starting genetics being different but in the end, their muscular potential may be very similar if they have the same height. There is not a big difference in genetics for muscle building when you look at 2 people who are at their peak, the only difference is the time it will take for them to reach their limit, some will reach it quicker than others. There are also a lot of guys online who lie when they say they are natural, the best way to see if someone is natural or not is to see if they are strong and if so, also how strong they actually are and how much time it took them to get there, I can look at any guy and tell with 100% certainty whether they are natty or not if I am given enough information about the person.

 

[Deleted member 5393]

Muscles win.

5/10 frame with 10/10 roided muscles >>>> 10/10 frame with natty muscles


most guys have shit shoulder width tho.

 

[Deleted member 8080]

View attachment 676807

great answer to this dumb question

 

[randomuser2407]

Muscles win.

5/10 frame with 10/10 roided muscles >>>> 10/10 frame with natty muscles


most guys have shit shoulder width tho.

Nobody has perfect shoulder width ratio, most men are the same on this aspect, the reason why some guys have a V taper is because they have very wide lats because they are really strong at weighted chin ups, nobody is born with wider lats, and those who have really strong muscular shoulders aren't wide, so when people say that someone has wide shoulders, they are wrong, they have wide lats. Having wide lats isn't impossible, even if you are short, you can have huge lats, but it won't make you taller, because you can't change your height.

 

[Deleted member 5393]

Nobody has perfect shoulder width ratio, most men are the same on this aspect, the reason why some guys have a V taper is because they have very wide lats because they are really strong at weighted chin ups, nobody is born with wider lats, and those who have really strong muscular shoulders aren't wide, so when people say that someone has wide shoulders, they are wrong, they have wide lats. Having wide lats isn't impossible, even if you are short, you can have huge lats, but it won't make you taller, because you can't change your height.

how important is lat width? I have wide lats but i stopped working them out because they feel useless.

girls only notice shoulders + arms + chest + traps

 

[Vvvvxxxx]

Nobody has perfect shoulder width ratio, most men are the same on this aspect, the reason why some guys have a V taper is because they have very wide lats because they are really strong at weighted chin ups, nobody is born with wider lats, and those who have really strong muscular shoulders aren't wide, so when people say that someone has wide shoulders, they are wrong, they have wide lats. Having wide lats isn't impossible, even if you are short, you can have huge lats, but it won't make you taller, because you can't change your height.

No, it’s possible to have wide clavicles and big scapula that make your shoulders much wider than your hips. Gives you the arm hanging look that women love.

 

[randomuser2407]

View attachment 676807

This is false. The guy on the right actually replied to the meme. The reason why he looks so narrow is because of the angle that the picture was taken in, as for the guy on the left, he isn't wide at all, he is just taller. The only thing you can say for sure about this topic is that the taller you are, the more impressive you will look when you are muscular. But everyone who has the same height as a similar frame, sure their insertion points might be a little different but in the end, if they all have the same amount of muscle mass, they will look very similar from one another. This thread should be named Height VS Muscles, not "Frame VS Muscles". And to be clear, height matters more than muscles, a taller guy will often mog a short muscular guy (especially if the girl only wants to date tall men, I know women who are like that), but a tall muscular guy will always mog a tall skinny guy unless the skinny guy has a supermodel face.

 

[piscicide]

I have a fucking brutal example of this. At my gym yesterday I see this really weak looking guy. He was short, like 5'6, but the worst part was his frame. Very wide hips and waist with just average shoulders. Couple minutes later I look over and was shocked to see him benching 365. You can be in the strongest 5% of men and peoples' lizard brain will see you as weak if you have a shitty frame.

 

[goat2x]

frame is more important but you can still look 90-99% percentile with average frame

 

[randomuser2407]

No, it’s possible to have wide clavicles and big scapula that make your shoulders much wider than your hips. Gives you the arm hanging look that women love.

No, like I said, the arm hanging look comes from having super wide lats, many guys who are muscular don't have that look because they focus too much on bench press and bicep curls, when they really should be focusing on weighted chin ups to build huge lats. Heavy beltless squats and deadlifts will also give you abs of steel that you will be able to see even at higher levels of body fat.

 

[goat2x]

Tbh muscle androgen density/sensitivity in the muscle might be even more important than frame if u have average genes

 

[Deleted member 4106]

This is false. The guy on the right actually replied to the meme. The reason why he looks so narrow is because of the angle that the picture was taken in, as for the guy on the left, he isn't wide at all, he is just taller. The only thing you can say for sure about this topic is that the taller you are, the more impressive you will look when you are muscular. But everyone who has the same height as a similar frame, sure their insertion points might be a little different but in the end, if they all have the same amount of muscle mass, they will look very similar from one another. This thread should be named Height VS Muscles, not "Frame VS Muscles". And to be clear, height matters more than muscles, a taller guy will often mog a short muscular guy (especially if the girl only wants to date tall men, I know women who are like that), but a tall muscular guy will always mog a tall skinny guy unless the skinny guy has a supermodel face.

I know, that was a meme

 

[Deleted member 8064]

Tbh muscle androgen density/sensitivity in the muscle might be even more important than frame if u have average genes

That could help with shoulder width? or even frauding wider clavicles?

 

[goat2x]

That could help with shoulder width? or even frauding wider clavicles?

No, its the most important part in building muscle

Frontiers | Muscle Androgen Receptor Content but Not Systemic Hormones Is Associated With Resistance Training-Induced Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy in Healthy, Young Men

The factors that underpin heterogeneity in muscle hypertrophy following resistance exercise training (RET) remain largely unknown. We examined circulating ho...

www.frontiersin.org

 

[randomuser2407]

I have a fucking brutal example of this. At my gym yesterday I see this really weak looking guy. He was short, like 5'6, but the worst part was his frame. Very wide hips and waist with just average shoulders. Couple minutes later I look over and was shocked to see him benching 365. You can be in the strongest 5% of men and peoples' lizard brain will see you as weak if you have a shitty frame.

A single compound movement is not enough to make a proper assumption of someone's strength level, that guy could have an elite level bench press but be a beginner or intermediate at every other lift (weighted chin ups, rows, overhead press, squats, deadlifts). Most guys aren't even advanced at all those lifts, they are only really good at one lift and that is why they have a huge chest, small shoulders, a small v taper, shitty abs, chicken legs, a weak lower back, and a weak upper back. Most guys in the gym are weak because they aren't training their whole body properly. To judge a person's strength level, look at their strength level in the 5 compound movements, then you'll know how truly advanced they really are.

 

[Deleted member 8064]

No, its the most important part in building muscle

Frontiers | Muscle Androgen Receptor Content but Not Systemic Hormones Is Associated With Resistance Training-Induced Skeletal Muscle Hypertrophy in Healthy, Young Men

The factors that underpin heterogeneity in muscle hypertrophy following resistance exercise training (RET) remain largely unknown. We examined circulating ho...

www.frontiersin.org

Oh I get what you mean, I thought you meant it for frame for some reason.

 

[0Ace0]

A manlet with muscle mass is still a manlet. But an average looking guy who is really tall will look a lot better with a very muscular ripped body than a skinny lanklet body, the difference is huge. While for the short guy, there isn't a huge difference in SMV, he will just look less nerdy and childish than the skinny manlets, but he will still look tiny, so although short guys should still get muscular, it won't put them in an entirely new league, it won't give them tons of Tinder matches. But a tall skinny guy who gets muscular can truly change his dating life if he gets muscular enough. Those who claim that women don't care about muscles clearly don't have big muscles themselves or they don't go out enough to notice the difference. No matter what you look like, getting muscular and ripped will still help you, but whether it will help a lot or just a little depends on your frame. Your frame is only dependent on your height, not any other factor. The reason why some guys have more muscle mass than others at the start is due to their starting genetics being different but in the end, their muscular potential may be very similar if they have the same height. There is not a big difference in genetics for muscle building when you look at 2 people who are at their peak, the only difference is the time it will take for them to reach their limit, some will reach it quicker than others. There are also a lot of guys online who lie when they say they are natural, the best way to see if someone is natural or not is to see if they are strong and if so, also how strong they actually are and how much time it took them to get there, I can look at any guy and tell with 100% certainty whether they are natty or not if I am given enough information about the person.

I disagree, frame thickness and width are more important factors, two people of the same height can have different frame sizes

 

[Deleted member 8064]

Muscles win.

5/10 frame with 10/10 roided muscles >>>> 10/10 frame with natty muscles


most guys have shit shoulder width tho.

For bodybuilding that might apply, but for aesthetics, 10/10 frame with decent muscles wins all day

 

[randomuser2407]

how important is lat width? I have wide lats but i stopped working them out because they feel useless.

girls only notice shoulders + arms + chest + traps

Lat width is very important, it can give you a super wide appearance and just the posture alone will make you look amazing. You haven't truly trained your lats to their max unless you can do weighted chin ups with 100 lbs, it's impossible to have small lats at that point. What I would recommend though is to not just train the lats, but every body part, do a full body program that you do 3 times per week (stronglifts, ICF 2.0 or starting strength) and run that for a 6-12 months and then get on an intermediate full body program that has linear periodization and run that for 1-2 years and every muscle in your body will be huge. That is the proper way to gymmax, most normies never achieve this.

 

[0Ace0]

For bodybuilding that might apply, but for aesthetics, 10/10 frame with decent muscles wins all day

Females cant really tell the difference.

 

[Deleted member 8064]

Females cant really tell the difference.

Yeah they can, a small frame requires gigantic muscles to overcome the frame, but a 10/10 frame needs a tiny bit of muscle on top and it's good. For women, athletic build is ideal, so the smaller frame loses in every way.

 

[Vvvvxxxx]

No, like I said, the arm hanging look comes from having super wide lats, many guys who are muscular don't have that look because they focus too much on bench press and bicep curls, when they really should be focusing on weighted chin ups to build huge lats. Heavy beltless squats and deadlifts will also give you abs of steel that you will be able to see even at higher levels of body fat.

No they don’t have that look because they don’t have wide clavicles. I have that hanging look and I don’t do any so called chin ups.

 

[randomuser2407]

I disagree, frame thickness and width are more important factors, two people of the same height can have different frame sizes

Only their starting points will be different. Some guys need to get stronger to reach the same amount of muscle mass as another guy, but all this means is that the guy who started off as very muscular will gain less total muscle than the one who started off as very skinny and weak. Some guys start with a good strength and muscular base while others start with a weak skinny body but in the end, if both men have the same height and are at the same age, they will look very similar, the only difference will be in the shape of their muscles (some guys will have round pecs while others will have square pecs, the look of the abs will be different also, but their FFMI will be very similar, so their weight at the same body fat will be mostly the same), one guy will just get there quicker than the other.

 

[randomuser2407]

No they don’t have that look because they don’t have wide clavicles. I have that hanging look and I don’t do any so called chin ups.

Show pics, because honestly I have no idea what you are talking about right now.

 

[Deleted member 5393]

No, it’s possible to have wide clavicles and big scapula that make your shoulders much wider than your hips. Gives you the arm hanging look that women love.

Can u post examples of ”arm hanging look”.

Lat width is very important, it can give you a super wide appearance and just the posture alone will make you look amazing. You haven't truly trained your lats to their max unless you can do weighted chin ups with 100 lbs, it's impossible to have small lats at that point. What I would recommend though is to not just train the lats, but every body part, do a full body program that you do 3 times per week (stronglifts, ICF 2.0 or starting strength) and run that for a 6-12 months and then get on an intermediate full body program that has linear periodization and run that for 1-2 years and every muscle in your body will be huge. That is the proper way to gymmax, most normies never achieve this.

well im already a roidedmaxxed gymboi but i dont know if lats matter much at all compared to chest or arms. I will make a thread on this.

 

[Yo momma]

If you have a bad frame you can build muscles on top of it and improve your perceived frame from it tbh i know a couple guys irl who did this cus they have small wrists and such. A better frame just gives you a better starting point for muscle building tbh.

 

[piscicide]

A manlet with muscle mass is still a manlet. But an average looking guy who is really tall will look a lot better with a very muscular ripped body than a skinny lanklet body, the difference is huge. While for the short guy, there isn't a huge difference in SMV, he will just look less nerdy and childish than the skinny manlets, but he will still look tiny, so although short guys should still get muscular, it won't put them in an entirely new league, it won't give them tons of Tinder matches. But a tall skinny guy who gets muscular can truly change his dating life if he gets muscular enough. Those who claim that women don't care about muscles clearly don't have big muscles themselves or they don't go out enough to notice the difference. No matter what you look like, getting muscular and ripped will still help you, but whether it will help a lot or just a little depends on your frame. Your frame is only dependent on your height, not any other factor. The reason why some guys have more muscle mass than others at the start is due to their starting genetics being different but in the end, their muscular potential may be very similar if they have the same height. There is not a big difference in genetics for muscle building when you look at 2 people who are at their peak, the only difference is the time it will take for them to reach their limit, some will reach it quicker than others. There are also a lot of guys online who lie when they say they are natural, the best way to see if someone is natural or not is to see if they are strong and if so, also how strong they actually are and how much time it took them to get there, I can look at any guy and tell with 100% certainty whether they are natty or not if I am given enough information about the person.

Exactly. The better your frame and height, the better you will look maxxed out (and the longer it will take you to get there). A 5'5 guy can reach his peak at 4 years and he won't look like a child anymore. Meanwhile it takes a 6'3 guy maybe 10 years to reach his peak but when he does he will be in the top 1% of male attractiveness.

 

[0Ace0]

No they don’t have that look because they don’t have wide clavicles. I have that hanging look and I don’t do any so called chin ups.

The arm hanging look also depends on lower ribcage width/waist size

 

[0Ace0]

Everyone knows a wide framed guy will beat the others when maxxed out, the point is those guys are in the minority, and an even smaller minority of them are actually maxxed out.

 

[ratdick77]

For majority of men, muscle will matter more, since guys do deltmaxxing and women cant really tell the difference between wide boned shoulders and wide delts
Only if the guy has noticeably wider bone structure will it matter

Shoulder slope/neck length would matter more from an aesthetic perspective

What do you mean by shoulder slope and neck length. What is your opinion on ideal neck length and slope.

 

[prettyboycel]

Ask the rock

 

[Vvvvxxxx]

Show pics, because honestly I have no idea what you are talking about right now.

 

[Deleted member 7725]

Frame first. If you have weak bitch boy frame just build muscles to make it look better. If you have nice incel muscles but shit frame it doesn’t matter. It doesn’t accentuate anything, it’s like spraying perfume on a pile of shite.

Frame is giga cope:

 

[0Ace0]

What do you mean by shoulder slope and neck length. What is your opinion on ideal neck length and slope.

Two MMA fighters, one has sloped shoulders, the other has square shoulders

 

[Deleted member 7725]

View attachment 676844
Ask the rock

Massive shoulders made his frame look insane but it's not that big tbh. Look at him now. He's around the same size as Mark Wahlberg:

 

[Deleted member 7725]

View attachment 676851 View attachment 676852
Two MMA fighters, one has sloped shoulders, the other has square shoulders

Square shoulders in the second picture aren't ideal. They should be in the middle.

 

[0Ace0]

Square shoulders in the second picture aren't ideal. They should be in the middle.

Only looks bad because he happens to have diagonal clavicles