Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

Babushkacatlady

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Fascinating. How old were you during this, and how long did achieving class 1 take overall? Are you still making more progress?
Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.
 
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antiantifa

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I heard it can cause/worsen tmj. Should i do it in the end or not? I have a normal bite and dont want to risk it, also i'm not recessed like in the before pic example in that thread
You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?

Interesting. How did your overall facial appearance change?

I definitely don't have a strong chin (it's neutral) but it is the strongest chin in the family. Other changes are noted below

What happened to your nose, more humped or less?- less
What happened to your mandible, more forward or less?- more forward
What happened to your ears, CCW or CW rotated?- cw
What happened to your cheeks, thinner or fatter?- thinner
Indicator line?-around 42-43
Upper/Lower Inter-molar/Inter-canine distance?- 34.5 IMW 31 ICW
Ramus length?- much longer, probably helped by chewing too
Also maybe pictures with your eyes removed?- would prefer not but may post in the future.
What about tongue posture, what did you do with it? Did you keep it up or as low as possible?- up against the palate

I notice during sleep that my face just wants to bring my molars upwards for some reason, it's annoying because it leads to CW rotation, I notice tension in temporalis during sleep. It's not tension from my consciously. This probably means you're having issues posturing your mandible, perhaps even posturing it too far back since the temporalis is also responsible for bringing the mandible up and back.

How so? The nerves of the tongue are different compared to the nerves of the masseter. And the masseter isn't required to keep the mouth shut. The Trigeminal Nerve branches out and controls both

Also who's alt are you? I know whose alt you are, I'll leave you to guess who I am.
I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website :D.

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.
Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:

View attachment 978710
Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.
 
antiantifa

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Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.
Very interesting experiences, what do you think of my own experience that I posted on TGW about placing the tongue more upwards to create more forward growth leverage. I've been able to successfully keep it there during sleep, which lead to good forward growth, though my ears did rotate CCW and my maxilla didn't rotate much(tiny bit CCW).

It did improve breathing a lot and especially side profile looks.

Only problem is it can cause TMJ because the mandible lightly being pushed backwards against the TMJ joint.
 
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You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?


I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website :D.

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.

Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.
It will make a big difference if i drop down a psl or fuck my perfectly straight teeth. Here is my side profile:



How is my maxilla and mandible? I turned 17 a week ago.
 
Babushkacatlady

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I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website :D.
No alt from this website, just a lurker lol.

Very interesting experiences, what do you think of my own experience that I posted on TGW about placing the tongue more upwards to create more forward growth leverage. I've been able to successfully keep it there during sleep, which lead to good forward growth, though my ears did rotate CCW and my maxilla didn't rotate much(tiny bit CCW).

It did improve breathing a lot and especially side profile looks.

Only problem is it can cause TMJ because the mandible lightly being pushed backwards against the TMJ joint.
Ahhh ok I think I misread it. I would say if it works go for it. The one thing is that if you're pushing back against the joint you might wind up with condylar resorption (scary stuff).

 
antiantifa

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It will make a big difference if i drop down a psl or fuck my perfectly straight teeth. Here is my side profile:

View attachment 978845View attachment 978846

How is my maxilla and mandible? I turned 17 a week ago.
Dunno, seems fine to me to me for 17 years old. I am no expert though. Your ears aren't ante though.
No alt from this website, just a lurker lol.


Ahhh ok I think I misread it. I would say if it works go for it. The one thing is that if you're pushing back against the joint you might wind up with condylar resorption (scary stuff).
View attachment 978851
View attachment 978852

It did work, but eventually the whole maxilla becomes so stretched out the tongue has no more passive leverage..
 
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I had TMJ from it as well, but it went away when I stopped, what if you just have to jut occasionally to make sure your TMJ has time to follow the changes?

Also I haven't met a single forward grown CCW maxilla rotated person who doesn't jut subconsciously, I usually ask to look at their teeth and there's obvious dental wear everywhere.

My ex's mother mogged me to death with her jaw, she used to have heavy bruxism at night where she'd just jut forward.

How long did you jut for? Did you make objective measurements? How can your memory be so bad btw you only said you were doing it just a few months ago.

@Copemaxxing has bruxism and has gigachad jaw.
I used to have tmj clicking on both sides but I have been practicing @betamanlets jutting theory and it’s 95% gone. If you look at old photos of mine, my jaw was slightly back which I think was just enough to cause tmd but on my profile you can see my jaw is forward enough now to not cause any problems.
 
antiantifa

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I used to have tmj clicking on both sides but I have been practicing @betamanlets jutting theory and it’s 95% gone. If you look at old photos of mine, my jaw was slightly back which I think was just enough to cause tmd but on my profile you can see my jaw is forward enough now to not cause any problems.
How did you just? Choose one:

  1. Pressure on all teeth.
  2. Mostly pressure on incisors.
  3. Most pressure on front half of palate.
  4. Mostly pressure on first molar.
  5. Mostly pressure on posterior half of palate.
  6. Mostly pressure on third molar.
  7. ??? Some other way ???
 
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How did you just? Choose one:

  1. Pressure on all teeth.
  2. Mostly pressure on incisors.
  3. Most pressure on front half of palate.
  4. Mostly pressure on first molar.
  5. Mostly pressure on posterior half of palate.
  6. Mostly pressure on third molar.
  7. ??? Some other way ???
Well it’s been changing a lot because I’m 35 turns in my mse so you could imagine how different my bite is.

The first day I put mainly pressure on the front incisors but my 2 front teeth were really sore the next day so I changed to putting the majority of pressure around the premolars to first molar area with decent pressure on the front teeth.

Because of how tilted my back molars are, I can’t even make contact with them especially with the mse turning.

My strategy was to use only the masseters to push up the premolar area and the ptyersgoids to jut forward on the incisors as a way to push the whole maxilla forward so my mandible can come forward. I also realize sense doing this I can’t underbite as much I could do which could be evidence of my maxilla moving forwards. Hope this makes sense.
 
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Well it’s been changing a lot because I’m 35 turns in my mse so you could imagine how different my bite is.

The first day I put mainly pressure on the front incisors but my 2 front teeth were really sore the next day so I changed to putting the majority of pressure around the premolars to first molar area with decent pressure on the front teeth.

Because of how tilted my back molars are, I can’t even make contact with them especially with the mse turning.

My strategy was to use only the masseters to push up the premolar area and the ptyersgoids to jut forward on the incisors as a way to push the whole maxilla forward so my mandible can come forward. I also realize sense doing this I can’t underbite as much I could do which could be evidence of my maxilla moving forwards. Hope this makes sense.
Ur the guy who got treatment and messed up his bite with CCW rotation?
 
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Ur the guy who got treatment and messed up his bite with CCW rotation?
No I’m still turning my mse. That other guy chewed on falim gum 8 hours a day. Although, I do occasionally chew on a dog toy with my inscisors and pre molars until my teeth get sore.
 
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No I’m still turning my mse. That other guy chewed on falim gum 8 hours a day. Although, I do occasionally chew on a dog toy with my inscisors and pre molars until my teeth get sore.
Okay, thank you for sharing your experience, man.
 
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this guy ccw mogs me
 
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but instead specifically jut incisors against the incisors?
that's gross for me to even think about ot, when I have overbite and considerably larger upper incusors than rest of my teeth :feelsmega:
 
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The muscle that pulls your mandible forward also pulls your upper maxilla backward.




This is betamanlet's pic. Imagine there is a pull on the top of maxilla backward.
So jutting will make your mandable grow bit maxxila shrink inside face?? According to what you said
 
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Bro this thread makes me feel like im on TGW, which has the most mentally ill userbase ive ever seen. All this bullshit won't get you results. Lmao
 
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You miss all of the chances you don't take. Ask yourself this: Do you have anything to lose? Can you mess up your face any more? If you drop 1 PSL now would it make a difference?


I know who's alt you are from TGW, that's obvious, but who's alt are you from this website :D.

Also interesting changes, I'll try lightly just lightly clenching with first molars forward.

Yeah I read this one, I think they copied this article from some Polish or Eastern European clinic that theorized that bruxism is caused by a soft diet and the body resists the soft diet.
Don't underestimate one PSL point. One PSL point from 4 to 3 is life changing. The difference between a chance of a normal life to bullying and ridicule
 
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If you wanna move it lower, why would you push upwards?
 
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Yeah the bone definitely responds better to softer consistent forces. I recall reading that it takes just a couple of grams of pressure to move teeth over time, and that even just 50 grams per teeth can be too much force. You probably need to be in the parasympathetic mode too before any serious remodeling is going to take place.

If you think of how the TMJ is a central hinge around which the mandible is rotating, then it makes sense to assume that once the mandible is guided into the proper rotation by jutting, it will take the maxillary teeth along for the ride in a way which will eventually result in a balanced occlusion where the load is evenly distributed across all teeth. So at a point where you no longer can connect incisors without molar contact, perhaps the next logical step is to go for molar contact. Then soon the molars would be pushed up and forward too, and incisor contact could resume, and so on.
How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.
 
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How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.
According to my doctor(Dr Bockow):

Splitting mid palatial suture=900-4500g of force

Moving teeth=10-150g of force

According to the what I’ve learned channel:

The average person swallows with 2 pounds of force or 900g, 600 times a day
 
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According to my doctor(Dr Bockow):

Splitting mid palatial suture=900-4500g of force

Moving teeth=10-150g of force

According to the what I’ve learned channel:

The average person swallows with 2 pounds of force from or 900g, 600 times a day
900 grams of force? that is doable af if you hard mew consistently.
 
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900 grams of force? that is doable af if you hard mew consistently.
Yes, but if you have any contact with the teeth, it will just transfer the force into dental tipping.
 
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Yes, but if you have any contact with the teeth, it will just transfer the force into dental tipping.
So no contact with the molars right?
 
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Do you want to tip your teeth out?
How much force on teeth would cause them to tip? If i press only on roof, will teeth still tip because tongue still touches molars
 
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How much force on teeth would cause them to tip? If i press only on roof, will teeth still tip because tongue still touches molars
Yep, that’s what happened to my teeth. I haven’t seen anybody with a worse case than me. It’s what happens when somebody learns to mew with a narrow palate but their tongue doesn’t fit.
 
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Yep, that’s what happened to my teeth. I haven’t seen anybody with a worse case than me. It’s what happens when somebody learns to mew with a narrow palate but their tongue doesn’t fit.
My IMW is like 42mm so its not narrow, but tongue still touches molars although its not with much force. Will it fuck up my bite?
 
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My IMW is like 42mm so its not narrow, but tongue still touches molars although its not with much force. Will it fuck up my bite?
Might not if you keep your teeth in contact.
 
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Could teeth tipping be avoided just by keeping teeth in contact?
Theoretically it would make sense. You could push on the top molars with your tongue but the bottom molars could be able to pull them back in if they’re touching. Didn’t work for me because I’m pretty sure I have my teeth apart during the night
 
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Theoretically it would make sense. You could push on the top molars with your tongue but the bottom molars could be able to pull them back in if they’re touching. Didn’t work for me because I’m pretty sure I have my teeth apart during the night
Try sleeping without a pillow ngl. Help me with night time mouth breathing. Stand on a wall with feet and ass touching it. Then, get a pillow and put it behind your head. You will get forward head posture and find it harder to keep teeth together and not mouthbreathe. Ditch the pillow and maybe go on a yoga mat to keep ideal alignment. Read this thread too it talks about alignment a little.
 
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Try sleeping without a pillow ngl. Help me with night time mouth breathing. Stand on a wall with feet and ass touching it. Then, get a pillow and put it behind your head. You will get forward head posture and find it harder to keep teeth together and not mouthbreathe. Ditch the pillow and maybe go on a yoga mat to keep ideal alignment. Read this thread too it talks about alignment a little.
I’ve been sleeping without a pillow for 2 years now, recently switched from couch to yoga mat and gotta day it definitely feels a lot better on my back and neck.
 
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I’ve been sleeping without a pillow for 2 years now, recently switched from couch to yoga mat and gotta day it definitely feels a lot better on my back and neck.
feels better on the neck, but shouldnt your teeth touch now?
 
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feels better on the neck, but shouldnt your teeth touch now?
It’s getting better, not an every night thing
 
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It’s getting better, not an every night thing
How bad is ur recession? do you have bone mass and are downswung or have none and have a caved in face
 
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How bad is ur recession? do you have bone mass and are downswung or have none and have a caved in face
Small bones but ok placement, downswung by about a centimeter I’d say
 
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Was a mouth breather for most of childhood due to big tonsils. Chewed a shit ton from age 16-18 for several hours a day. Did nothing for my class 2 and left me with chipmunk round jaw, but did help my ramus. Stopped doing that and just focused on tongue posture, jutting, lips together, and teeth gently together from 19-20 and fixed the class 2 in about a year. Am 21 now, still making progress, albeit slower. I've never had orthodontics and today I get compliments on "nice teeth" (only mild lower crowding) and "strong features". I'm certain if I had orthodontics, my face would look far far worse. Funny thing is, I still have a bit of a deep bite, and my maxilla is still technically around 10mm too far down and around 5mm too far back.My molars don't touch when I jut and I have a class 2, what should I do?
 
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wont this cause TMJ derangements leading to issues later down the line?\
 
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How would a palatal expander work if the limit if 50 grams. They only do like 1500 grams, and average swallow is 1800 grams.
The DNA and ALF appliances for example generate very light forces and expand the arches over time.
 
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The DNA and ALF appliances for example generate very light forces and expand the arches over time.
If you’re an adult they’re basically just tipping teeth, suture growth from appliances only really happen when you’re young.
 
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If you’re an adult they’re basically just tipping teeth, suture growth from appliances only really happen when you’re young.
They don't induce sutural growth, but rather remodeling of the alveolus. The simply mimic natural oral posture for those whose palates are too small for the tongue to do it.
 
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They don't induce sutural growth, but rather remodeling of the alveolus.
Now this, I’ve never heard of. The way I understood it was this, you can expand the palate in 2 ways, creating new growth at the suture/splitting suture, or tipping of teeth outwards while the roots remain in the same position.
 
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Now this, I’ve never heard of. The way I understood it was this, you can expand the palate in 2 ways, creating new growth at the suture/splitting suture, or tipping of teeth outwards while the roots remain in the same position.
The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.

 
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The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.

View attachment 979704
Really cool gif. In the gif wouldn’t the roots of the teeth be in the exact same position though? Because if the maxilla didn’t widen, then the roots of the teeth would stay stationary because that’s what their connected to.
 

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