Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

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joseph

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Man you have to explain what you do at night with your teeth. You have some form of bruxism that gave you too much CCW rotation and gave you a giga-chad jaw at the expense of no visible teeth in your smile.

You have a ridiculously short distance between your incisor and your nose as well.
can you fix short distance between incisor and nose?
 
antiantifa

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can you fix short distance between incisor and nose?
dont think u can do so naturally, typically this is caused by clenching which causes the bone to actually recede.
 
Babushkacatlady

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@Babushkacatlady
@betamanlet

View attachment 989837






These muscles above are all much more relevant for cranial base than masticatory muscles.


In this case the soft palate muscles are the levator/tensor palatini,and the muscle surrounding them.




VPI = Velopharyngeal Incompetence = weak levator and tensor palatini muscles.



If you swallow a certain way, where you tense the lateral pterygoid, the inferior anterior tongue muscles, the palatoglossus and the levator palatini, you can feel the temporal bone being pulled downwards at the inferior anterior region.

Currently my temporal bone is very CCW rotated. I wonder if CCW rotated temporal bone equals CW rotated maxilla?
Interesting so you think these muscles are controlling the rotation of the temporal bone and cranial base orientation? It is hypothetically possible tbh. I think temporalis also has some influence on both mandibular position stability and cranial base.

We should also note that the sphenoid (Point S) moves/rotates up when the maxilla moves to an ideal position and moves/rotates down when maxilla is unideal (given this is a vertical growth situation).

We also know how the cranial base angle (Ba-S-N) becomes more acute with ideal growth. What proportion do you think this is just the sphenoid moving up versus the Basion (Ba) closing and moving forwards via the spheno occipital synchondrosis flexing forward?

@betamanlet
@antiantifa
Another thing of interesting note other than the muscles is the nerves running through the cranial bones. The non alveolar portion of the mandible is merely a little outgrowth of bone that grows around the inferior alveolar nerve:



We know that people who are struck with major neuromotor diseases and injuries can cause atrophy within the bone because the nerve has been cut off/lost conductivity. Nerves also run throughout the bones of the skull and cranial base often having the very same foundational shape.Is the bone loss from simply a lack of functional stimulation from the muscles or the nerves themselves?

Now this might sound very very out there and insane, perhaps bordering on mystical/spiritual: Is this a case of mind over matter? Can the mere mental focus and will on the sensory nerves strengthen, change shape, and position of cranial bones via nerve conduction and out-splitting and stimulation? If I focus on sensation near my sphenoid, perhaps one on the top of my sphenoid, given that nerves can functionally stimulate bone, can this cause some kind of shift within it?
 
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Pubertymaxxingcel

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@Copemaxxing keep messaging me with his profile, he has most CCW rotated profile I've ever seen. He also has some form of bruxism(probably jutting).

Is jutting now legit for CCW rotation or not?

@betamanlet

Wake the fuck up, faggot and answer this question, you kept posting years ago about jutting and shit, what is ur personal results with this shit?
Jutting is cope
 
Babushkacatlady

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I will also leave this quote here from Essentials of Facial Growth by Enlow and Hans, it is something to think about:

"In your lifetime, you have seen the faces of thousands of people, and each face is recognizable to you as distinctively individual. No two are quite alike, even those of identical twins. Every person's face is a custom-made original; there has never been another face exactly the same before,and there never will be again. Yet consider how relatively few parts comprise a face: a lower jaw and chin, cheekbones, a mouth and upper jaw, a nose, and two orbits. Add a forehead and supraorbital ridges for the neurocranial parts relating to the face. How is it possible that so few components can underlie such great variation in facial form?
The answer is that we have the ability to perceive exceedingly subtle differences in the relative shape, spread, and proportions of both hard and soft tissue parts and minute variations in the topographic contours among all of them. Very slight alterations in the configuration of the nose, for example, make a substantial difference in the appearance and the character of one's face as a whole. (Fig. 8-1, shows a sketch from photographs of the same person before and after rhinoplasty; they look like two quite different individuals, although only a minor nasal contour has been altered.) Furthermore, there is the particular "set" to a person's mouth, the personal sparkle in the eyes, and the tone in the muscles of facial expression that are quite individualized. Often we ask, ''Who does that person remind you of?" because there is some unique combination of nasal contour, lip configuration, jaw shape, and so on, that resembles some other face known to us."
 
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hairyballscel

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Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:

how do u achieve this?
 
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antiantifa

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Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.
IMO doesn't look like a good change, lack of vertical growth.
 
Kurwa

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Don't you guys look like with a severe underbite when jutting? I can't even protrude lower jaw even a bit, cuz it looks legit retarded. Maybe it's cause of my recession/edge-to-edge bite.
 
antiantifa

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Don't you guys look like with a severe underbite when jutting? I can't even protrude lower jaw even a bit, cuz it looks legit retarded. Maybe it's cause of my recession/edge-to-edge bite.
lol ur name checks out, ur supposed to jut while keeping teeth contact, but idk if it's legit/healthy
 
Kurwa

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lol ur name checks out, ur supposed to jut while keeping teeth contact, but idk if it's legit/healthy
not sure what that means. Even if I move lower teeth like 2mms forward I look like I have underbite.
 
antiantifa

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not sure what that means. Even if I move lower teeth like 2mms forward I look like I have underbite.
Push lower teeth against upper teeth, don't actually jut your jaw.
 
Kurwa

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Push lower teeth against upper teeth, don't actually jut your jaw.
Still doesn't look good. Keep that in mind, that I have edge-to-edge bite. I don't have that slight protrusion of upper incisors.
 
antiantifa

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Still doesn't look good. Keep that in mind, that I have edge-to-edge bite. I don't have that slight protrusion of upper incisors.
Literally don't understand your point, re-read the thread, mate.
 
Kurwa

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Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.
can you post the link to that TGW thread? She looks like she got her face completely remodeled...
 
hairyballscel

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Mewing over several years. No surgery will fix the long midface but can only offer camouflage options like a rhinoplasty and cheek augmentation, but it will still look odd.
whats the mechanism behind the changes in the pic?

CCW rotation of maxilla?
 
Babushkacatlady

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can you post the link to that TGW thread? She looks like she got her face completely remodeled...
whats the mechanism behind the changes in the pic?

CCW rotation of maxilla?

That pic is a morph, those aren't actual results. That change is from the maxilla shortening vertically and some CCW rotation coming with that.
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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I need CW rotation of the maxilla to gain 9mm of lower third height
And then I need to bring my jaw forward by like 7mm because of the CW rotation.

I had some sort of class 3 as a child. My maxilla was fine but my mandible was too forwards and vertically short because I lacked maxilla height. Probably because of bruxism. So instead of my dentist giving me CW because I lacked lower third height, he just pulled the mandible back or sth and made the occlusion normal.

So naturally I shouldnt have had this problem if my dentist had given me CW instead of pulling my fucking mandible back by however much he did...
What a fucking bitch.

I can get tads with invisalign to help rotate the maxilla CW, when I smile you cant see my front full teeth by 5mm. So I can rotate CW 5mm on the front teeth. (my current orthodontist wants to do 2.5mm in 6 months jfl. Im pretty sure it doesnt take that long especially when there is chewing and shit that can accelerate that.
And I can rotate like 3mm on the back teeth with the tads.

but after this my mandible will be recessed by around 6mm. so I need to undo what my shit first orthodontist did and bring it forwards.
but my orthodontist wants to do a chin implant or a chin surgery jfl. theres no way im doing that shit.

Can any of you help me out? Im can try any experiments chewing jutting or whatever tf


@antiantifa @retard @betamanlet @Babushkacatlady

If you all are curious to see my case and the effects I got from all this I have ct scan and xrays too I can pm
 
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RecessedPrettyboy

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Also to add info about recession
I was a mouth breather my entire life till 2 years ago due to tonsils and allergies.
Yet I had perfect forward maxilla development
And I guess mandible until it was pulled back.
 
hairyballscel

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That change is from the maxilla shortening vertically and some CCW rotation coming with that.
do you think chewing with anterior teeth during MSE could give CCW rotation?
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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I think im just going to jut and give myself a class 3 underbite
So when I get the CW rotation of my maxilla with invisalign tads the occlusion will be normal

Is this anything of a good idea at all?
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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Try maybe opening this suture? Just push against your mandible while jutting your mandible forward, then reverse it by thumb-pulling on your maxilla forward, this works really well for me, often I am afraid of using too much force for fear of literally ripping my maxilla out.

The more I do this, the harder the cracks become and the more movement I feel. It's a scary exercise ngl.

The exact way is :

Push 3 seconds against the mandible while jutting as counter-force(keep mandible position relatively stable, don't over-extend it), then pull for 3 seconds against the palate upwards and forwards with your thumbs. I think if you do this for 15 minutes or even shorter you will start hearing cracking in your face.
this works. I hear cracks there
 
Babushkacatlady

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I need CW rotation of the maxilla to gain 9mm of lower third height
And then I need to bring my jaw forward by like 7mm because of the CW rotation.

I had some sort of class 3 as a child. My maxilla was fine but my mandible was too forwards and vertically short because I lacked maxilla height. Probably because of bruxism. So instead of my dentist giving me CW because I lacked lower third height, he just pulled the mandible back or sth and made the occlusion normal.

So naturally I shouldnt have had this problem if my dentist had given me CW instead of pulling my fucking mandible back by however much he did...
What a fucking bitch.

I can get tads with invisalign to help rotate the maxilla CW, when I smile you cant see my front full teeth by 5mm. So I can rotate CW 5mm on the front teeth. (my current orthodontist wants to do 2.5mm in 6 months jfl. Im pretty sure it doesnt take that long especially when there is chewing and shit that can accelerate that.
And I can rotate like 3mm on the back teeth with the tads.

but after this my mandible will be recessed by around 6mm. so I need to undo what my shit first orthodontist did and bring it forwards.
but my orthodontist wants to do a chin implant or a chin surgery jfl. theres no way im doing that shit.

Can any of you help me out? Im can try any experiments chewing jutting or whatever tf


@antiantifa @retard @betamanlet @Babushkacatlady

If you all are curious to see my case and the effects I got from all this I have ct scan and xrays too I can pm
PM scan and x rays if possible, preferably a pic of the face (or part of it) too.
 
Kurwa

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Also to add info about recession
I was a mouth breather my entire life till 2 years ago due to tonsils and allergies.
Yet I had perfect forward maxilla development
And I guess mandible until it was pulled back.
Recession/downgrowth seems to be a tricky thing. I have signs of a downgrown maxilla: visible antegonial notch, longish midface and a dorsal hump. I don't have NCT though, which is weird. On top of that I also have recessed midface: naso folds and hollow undereyes. Funny thing is I still have visible lateral zygo gworth and somehow there's angularity in the cheeks area. I have no idea how you can even get such combo.

On the other hand there's my friend who is a legit mouthbreather. He had surgically widened palate and all that jazz. Gonial angle ~140 without visible antegonial notch, NCT AND... no dorsal hump, perfect midface (no folds, good zygo projection) and undereye support.

What the shit.
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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Seems counter-intuitive, I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down. Also I can feel it using the muscles attached to the styloid:



This would probably causes CCW rotation of the ears which is exactly what I don't want considering how CCW rotated my ears already are.

Look at this table of correlation between muscle CSA and various facial shapes:
View attachment 981768

View attachment 981788
As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height. The cranial base angle and prognathism is meant by this:
View attachment 981791
Where negative correlation is ideal for forward movement of lower third relative to the maxilla.


Interesting fact is just by looking at these correlations you can see that short face syndrome is caused by masseters(shorten both upper and lower face) and to some extent by temporalis(shorten upper face, but not lower third).

Overall the lateral pterygoids seem like the ideal muscle to hypertrophy for aesthetics for men and to also prevent most craniofacial disorders in all people.

"Putative bite force from the medial pterygoid muscle alone correlated positively with mandibular length and inversely with upper face height. When muscle and tooth moment arms were considered together, a system efficient at producing force on the first molar was statistically associated with a face having a large intergonial width, small intercondylar width, narrow dental arch, forward maxilla, and forward mandible."




I'll see what happens overtime. I just hope my ears don't CCW rotate even more. Because I pushed my whole face forward with the tongue, the lower ear followed and I have elven ears basically.
so if the lateral pterygoid makes the lower third taller it is giving more height to the maxilla?

making the maxilla grow downwards and forwards.

if not the lateral pterygoid, then what muscle is responsible for pulling the maxilla down and forwards? there has to be a muscle that is responsible for that
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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Recession/downgrowth seems to be a tricky thing. I have signs of a downgrown maxilla: visible antegonial notch, longish midface and a dorsal hump. I don't have NCT though, which is weird. On top of that I also have recessed midface: naso folds and hollow undereyes. Funny thing is I still have visible lateral zygo gworth and somehow there's angularity in the cheeks area. I have no idea how you can even get such combo.

On the other hand there's my friend who is a legit mouthbreather. He had surgically widened palate and all that jazz. Gonial angle ~140 without visible antegonial notch, NCT AND... no dorsal hump, perfect midface (no folds, good zygo projection) and undereye support.

What the shit.
nct and eye shape is mostly caused by the malaris muscle and orbicularis oculi. rather than bone growth.
do you have droopy eyelids with slight pct?
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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@Babushkacatlady

Also check out this interesting study:


"Age-related changes of the mid-facial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton."

If resorption can happen at posterior maxilla, I am sure deposition can happen as well.
so there has to be a way to just add height to the maxilla without rotating it CW and losing forward growth.
 
Kurwa

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nct and eye shape is mostly caused by the malaris muscle and orbicularis oculi. rather than bone growth.
do you have droopy eyelids with slight pct?
Can you post some examples, so I can compare?
 
22Bones

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HUGE DISCOVERY: BY JUTTING 24/7 THE TMJ WILL GROW BACKWARDS

This means you will be forced to jut 24/7 as the time you bring your jaw back, it will aggrivate the joint again due to the longer version of itself jamming back up into the capsule.
@betamanlet @Babushkacatlady @RecessedPrettyboy @antiantifa

Watch this video.
 
Babushkacatlady

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HUGE DISCOVERY: BY JUTTING 24/7 THE TMJ WILL GROW BACKWARDS

This means you will be forced to jut 24/7 as the time you bring your jaw back, it will aggrivate the joint again due to the longer version of itself jamming back up into the capsule.
@betamanlet @Babushkacatlady @RecessedPrettyboy @antiantifa

Watch this video.
Yes the joint grows backwards, because the joint comes out of the socket forwards when jutting (kinda dislocated) and it must grow backwards to adapt. Still validates this point. You shouldn't bring your jaw back to its original position, since the joint has now remodeled to a new position.
 
RecessedPrettyboy

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Yes the joint grows backwards, because the joint comes out of the socket forwards when jutting (kinda dislocated) and it must grow backwards to adapt. Still validates this point.
Wait so is jutting bad or good? Im kinda lost cuz I have never looked too much into jutting.
 
22Bones

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Yes the joint grows backwards, because the joint comes out of the socket forwards when jutting (kinda dislocated) and it must grow backwards to adapt. Still validates this point.
Theoretically by jutting this is what you would achieve

1. More projecting chin
2. Lower incisors tipped back
3. bimaxiliary protrusion of just the top teeth
4. forward movement of the maxilla
5. Increased ramus height due to joint growing back
6. Increased distance between condyloid process and corodoid process

Any others?

Jutting has to be the best looksmax out there for a strong jaw
 
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Theoretically by jutting this is what you would achieve

1. More projecting chin
2. Lower incisors tipped back
3. bimaxiliary protrusion of just the top teeth
4. forward movement of the maxilla
5. Increased ramus height due to joint growing back
6. Increased distance between condyloid process and corodoid process

Any others?

Jutting has to be the best looksmax out there for a strong jaw
Jutting with teeth in contact or normal jutting?
 

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