Mechanisms of Maxillary Recession/Downgrowth From Mouth Breathing

retard

retard

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tbh its been a while since I made a post like this so here u go

Its pretty well known in any PSL/mewing circle/breathing-focused orthodontics that mouth breathing causes the facial bones to grow differently opposed to if not mouth breathing, however it really made no sense from a cause and effect standpoint why mouth breathers would be more recessed/downgrown compared to another person who isn't mewing but not mouth breathing, as the only difference is the jaw is slightly more depressed in the mouth breather group, compared to the non-mouth breathing non-mewing group, yet their faces will develop in such drastically different ways despite only a very slight change in growth variables (factors that will lead to different growth variants, tongue thrusting = flared incisors for example)

Even the people who made this info mainstream (The Mews) have practically no info regarding this, they just say the facts/evidence, however the mechanisms are no where to be found. I have thought about this for a long time and have came up with other theories that I later debunked, but I think this one might finally be legit.

Remember nearly all facial growth is dictated by forces, these forces act upon the sutures and generate growth based on the given force

Since there is no difference in force output from the mandible acting upon the maxilla itsself, (jaws arent touching when mouthbreathing), the only variable to look at are the muscles, and the forces they induce on the surrounding facial bones.

Another point, muscles are elastic, and the origin and insertion (muscle attachments) exert inverse forces upon each other. (When chewing, the temporalis muscle elevates the jaw, but the muscle also applies a downwards force on the temporal bone where the muscle attaches.)

Here is the medial pterygoid muscle: (its the vertical larger one)
1609218237455



The muscle attaches on the mandible (obviously) and originates from the maxilla. Since muscles are elastic, whenever the jaw is depressed, the mandible rotates both downwards and backwards, and the muscle is being "stretched" similarly to a rubber band, this elastic force is pulling the maxilla both downwards and backwards (the lateral pterygoid does the same as well, just much less signficantly).

This elastic force acting upon the maxilla is essentially a "reverse facepuller," instead of pulling the maxilla forward and upwards, it pulls the maxilla down and backwards creating faces lacking forward any forward growth, with significant vertical growth. (again explaining why mouthbreathers end up with destroyed faces and non mewing non mouthbreathers will generally grow much more typically)
1609218866875


Here is my scuffed asf drawing of this - the mandible is rotated backwards and downwards due to the mouth breathing, this increases the space between the pterygoid muscle's origin and insertion (the mandible to maxilla) - the muscle acts the same way as stretched rubber band would since they are both elastic, when the distance between the two points is increased, the elastic force between the attachment points are as well. This force for many unfortunate souls recesses their maxilla all the way down to Subhumanistan, as these poor souls essentially are reverse facepulling their entire life








a question that will probably be asked - "but if the muscle when activated (jaw elevated), the same force downward and backward force is still applied, and probably even stronger"

this is true but in this situation, the jaw being elevated itself pushes upon the maxilla at a much greater magnitude than the muscle is pulling the maxilla back at (since there are other muscles like the masseter and temporalis that also elevate the mandible without applying a downward + backward force on the maxilla (only the pterygoid muscles do this, as they are the only ones attached to the maxilla)
 
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So its over since birth
 
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was about to say 'dn read lol' but i like your threads so im gonna read it now
 
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so keeping your teeth together is the key to forward growth? the tongue is much weaker than masseters imo
 
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High iq to come up with that yourself. Makes perfect sense ima consider it facts
 
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so keeping your teeth together is the key to forward growth? the tongue is much weaker than masseters imo
it is more about not stretching pterygoid muscles, keeping your teeth together does prevent this, but it doesn't cause forward growth, and while it can push the maxilla upwards given you activate the masticatory muscles enough, that is basically just conscious bruxism at that point, keeping the teeth lighting together is still ideal for other reasons though
 
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it is more about not stretching pterygoid muscles, keeping your teeth together does prevent this, but it doesn't cause forward growth, and while it can push the maxilla upwards given you activate the masticatory muscles enough, that is basically just conscious bruxism at that point, keeping the teeth lighting together is still ideal for other reasons though
based, so i still have to mew?
 
Nice to see you post again, they feel like a needle in a haystack of water threads
 
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After looking at the anatomy you showed, if a person kept teeth in contact and contracted their pterygoid muscles, would they gain forward and upward growth (assuming the person has good tongue posture)?

Because it seems like the contracting of the pterygoid would bring the mandible forward.
 
There's a much easier way to simplify this even when breaking down the activated muscle groups. Saggital growth is caused my masticatory force of the masseter stress acting upon the bones it slides upon (Ramus and lateral zygos portion). Mouthbreathing causes this growth to be vertical instead of transversive. Now further compounding this, mouthbreathing is typically a symptom of a narrow upper palate/weaker jaws meaning they likely did not at all chew sufficiently hard or nutritious foods to stimulate mastication. Even in the case where they do but still mouthbreath, it explains cases like some people with downward grown mandibles having decent saggital growth (like myself; I just ate a lot but I have a broad chin and decent bigonial wdith). Any and all force on the associating muscles around the zygos and maxilla/mandible are guided downwards instead of forwards. Most of these people also hork down food instead of properly swallowing with tongue guidance which could further contribute to soft palate problems and thus another maxillary deficiency (teeth crowding).
 
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After looking at the anatomy you showed, if a person kept teeth in contact and contracted their pterygoid muscles, would they gain forward and upward growth (assuming the person has good tongue posture)?

Because it seems like the contracting of the pterygoid would bring the mandible forward.
No, there is no way to use any of the masticatory muscles in a way that apply a forward force sadly, and ye it does bring the mandible forward that’s the muscles purposes lul
 
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so keep ur teeth together basically lol.
 
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back at it again with the broscience you never disappoint
 
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I oversimplify this by simply saying that it is incredibly hard to mouthbreathe with your tongue residing right under the palate, hence the maxilla will always fall down noneless.
 
tbh its been a while since I made a post like this so here u go

Its pretty well known in any PSL/mewing circle/breathing-focused orthodontics that mouth breathing causes the facial bones to grow differently opposed to if not mouth breathing, however it really made no sense from a cause and effect standpoint why mouth breathers would be more recessed/downgrown compared to another person who isn't mewing but not mouth breathing, as the only difference is the jaw is slightly more depressed in the mouth breather group, compared to the non-mouth breathing non-mewing group, yet their faces will develop in such drastically different ways despite only a very slight change in growth variables (factors that will lead to different growth variants, tongue thrusting = flared incisors for example)

Even the people who made this info mainstream (The Mews) have practically no info regarding this, they just say the facts/evidence, however the mechanisms are no where to be found. I have thought about this for a long time and have came up with other theories that I later debunked, but I think this one might finally be legit.

Remember nearly all facial growth is dictated by forces, these forces act upon the sutures and generate growth based on the given force

Since there is no difference in force output from the mandible acting upon the maxilla itsself, (jaws arent touching when mouthbreathing), the only variable to look at are the muscles, and the forces they induce on the surrounding facial bones.

Another point, muscles are elastic, and the origin and insertion (muscle attachments) exert inverse forces upon each other. (When chewing, the temporalis muscle elevates the jaw, but the muscle also applies a downwards force on the temporal bone where the muscle attaches.)

Here is the medial pterygoid muscle: (its the vertical larger one)
View attachment 895897


The muscle attaches on the mandible (obviously) and originates from the maxilla. Since muscles are elastic, whenever the jaw is depressed, the mandible rotates both downwards and backwards, and the muscle is being "stretched" similarly to a rubber band, this elastic force is pulling the maxilla both downwards and backwards (the lateral pterygoid does the same as well, just much less signficantly).

This elastic force acting upon the maxilla is essentially a "reverse facepuller," instead of pulling the maxilla forward and upwards, it pulls the maxilla down and backwards creating faces lacking forward any forward growth, with significant vertical growth. (again explaining why mouthbreathers end up with destroyed faces and non mewing non mouthbreathers will generally grow much more typically)
View attachment 895905

Here is my scuffed asf drawing of this - the mandible is rotated backwards and downwards due to the mouth breathing, this increases the space between the pterygoid muscle's origin and insertion (the mandible to maxilla) - the muscle acts the same way as stretched rubber band would since they are both elastic, when the distance between the two points is increased, the elastic force between the attachment points are as well. This force for many unfortunate souls recesses their maxilla all the way down to Subhumanistan, as these poor souls essentially are reverse facepulling their entire life








a question that will probably be asked - "but if the muscle when activated (jaw elevated), the same force downward and backward force is still applied, and probably even stronger"

this is true but in this situation, the jaw being elevated itself pushes upon the maxilla at a much greater magnitude than the muscle is pulling the maxilla back at (since there are other muscles like the masseter and temporalis that also elevate the mandible without applying a downward + backward force on the maxilla (only the pterygoid muscles do this, as they are the only ones attached to the maxilla)


You learnt the unhealthy growth patterns and mewing stops any more damage but the real question is past puberty after the bones have ossifed in place how do we correct down wards growth ? if any 1 knows it's you
 
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You learnt the unhealthy growth patterns and mewing stops any more damage but the real question is past puberty after the bones have ossifed in place how do we correct down wards growth ? if any 1 knows it's you
since the sutures are never actually fused until very late in life, it is always theoretically possible to reverse bad growth/induce good growth, however the forces you need to do this at reasonable rate are not possible atm

chewing/a palate expander is the only force that is high enough to cause change, but sadly both of these do not influence forward growth, which is by far most important factor in facial development for aesthetics

Facepulling with bone anchorage may feasible, but there are practically no studies on it there is no room to make a good judgement around it
 
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since the sutures are never actually fused until very late in life, it is always theoretically possible to reverse bad growth/induce good growth, however the forces you need to do this at reasonable rate are not possible atm
My theory was always is that if you can push the maxilla backwards by elastics later in life then you can do the exact opposite aka pushing it forward.

chewing/a palate expander is the only force that is high enough to cause change, but sadly both of these do not influence forward growth, which is by far most important factor in facial development for aesthetics

so that means chewing can CCW rotate your maxilla but not push it forward? also i thought @ropeandcope device was enough to push the maxilla forward or the sutures are really that strong for it to not work?
 
My theory was always is that if you can push the maxilla backwards by elastics later in life then you can do the exact opposite aka pushing it forward.



so that means chewing can CCW rotate your maxilla but not push it forward? also i thought @ropeandcope device was enough to push the maxilla forward or the sutures are really that strong for it to not work?
elastics don’t influence the maxilla at all <13, and under 13 they do very insignificantly

the issue with copes device is that it would pull the teeth arch forward as well which isn’t good
 
Granted, genetics play a part in forming the necessary mechanisms for growth.

Nevertheless, proper development is mostly due to good habits, both postural and dental.
 
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(factors that will lead to different growth variants, tongue thrusting = flared incisors for example)
can you elaborate? According to the ortho, my lips are too protrusive compared to my chin because of severe dentoalveolar protrusion, that's flared incisors right?

I was thinking it's genetic because my mom has the exact same thing, no chin protrusion because of her lips.
 
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can you elaborate? According to the ortho, my lips are too protrusive compared to my chin because of severe dentoalveolar protrusion, that's flared incisors right?

I was thinking it's genetic because my mom has the exact same thing, no chin protrusion because of her lips.
flared incisors cause protruding upper lip, which is why braces to fix overbite can leave u with a shit flat lip
 
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most people don't keep the jaws totally together tho - there is usually a 2-3mm distance
 
can you elaborate? According to the ortho, my lips are too protrusive compared to my chin because of severe dentoalveolar protrusion, that's flared incisors right?

I was thinking it's genetic because my mom has the exact same thing, no chin protrusion because of her lips.
That’s correct, google bimaxillary, that’s just a fancy term for flared incisors, however if your chin has no protrusion/bump, that’s likely mentalis strain caused by a recessed/under grown mandible (the type of chin that is caused by that is also commonly seen in bimaxillary protrusion
 
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tbh its been a while since I made a post like this so here u go

Its pretty well known in any PSL/mewing circle/breathing-focused orthodontics that mouth breathing causes the facial bones to grow differently opposed to if not mouth breathing, however it really made no sense from a cause and effect standpoint why mouth breathers would be more recessed/downgrown compared to another person who isn't mewing but not mouth breathing, as the only difference is the jaw is slightly more depressed in the mouth breather group, compared to the non-mouth breathing non-mewing group, yet their faces will develop in such drastically different ways despite only a very slight change in growth variables (factors that will lead to different growth variants, tongue thrusting = flared incisors for example)

Even the people who made this info mainstream (The Mews) have practically no info regarding this, they just say the facts/evidence, however the mechanisms are no where to be found. I have thought about this for a long time and have came up with other theories that I later debunked, but I think this one might finally be legit.

Remember nearly all facial growth is dictated by forces, these forces act upon the sutures and generate growth based on the given force

Since there is no difference in force output from the mandible acting upon the maxilla itsself, (jaws arent touching when mouthbreathing), the only variable to look at are the muscles, and the forces they induce on the surrounding facial bones.

Another point, muscles are elastic, and the origin and insertion (muscle attachments) exert inverse forces upon each other. (When chewing, the temporalis muscle elevates the jaw, but the muscle also applies a downwards force on the temporal bone where the muscle attaches.)

Here is the medial pterygoid muscle: (its the vertical larger one)
View attachment 895897


The muscle attaches on the mandible (obviously) and originates from the maxilla. Since muscles are elastic, whenever the jaw is depressed, the mandible rotates both downwards and backwards, and the muscle is being "stretched" similarly to a rubber band, this elastic force is pulling the maxilla both downwards and backwards (the lateral pterygoid does the same as well, just much less signficantly).

This elastic force acting upon the maxilla is essentially a "reverse facepuller," instead of pulling the maxilla forward and upwards, it pulls the maxilla down and backwards creating faces lacking forward any forward growth, with significant vertical growth. (again explaining why mouthbreathers end up with destroyed faces and non mewing non mouthbreathers will generally grow much more typically)
View attachment 895905

Here is my scuffed asf drawing of this - the mandible is rotated backwards and downwards due to the mouth breathing, this increases the space between the pterygoid muscle's origin and insertion (the mandible to maxilla) - the muscle acts the same way as stretched rubber band would since they are both elastic, when the distance between the two points is increased, the elastic force between the attachment points are as well. This force for many unfortunate souls recesses their maxilla all the way down to Subhumanistan, as these poor souls essentially are reverse facepulling their entire life








a question that will probably be asked - "but if the muscle when activated (jaw elevated), the same force downward and backward force is still applied, and probably even stronger"

this is true but in this situation, the jaw being elevated itself pushes upon the maxilla at a much greater magnitude than the muscle is pulling the maxilla back at (since there are other muscles like the masseter and temporalis that also elevate the mandible without applying a downward + backward force on the maxilla (only the pterygoid muscles do this, as they are the only ones attached to the maxilla)
I was thinking the same thing, I made a thread about the pterygoid but refering to it as reverse head gear is a good analogy. Only difference was how it affected gonial width.
 
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I was thinking the same thing, I made a thread about the pterygoid but refering to it as reverse head gear is a good analogy. Only difference was how it affected gonial width.
link bro
 
That’s correct, google bimaxillary, that’s just a fancy term for flared incisors, however if your chin has no protrusion/bump, that’s likely mentalis strain caused by a recessed/under grown mandible (the type of chin that is caused by that is also commonly seen in bimaxillary protrusion
brutal, but pretty much all blacks have this, that wouldn't mean all of them tongue thrusted during formative years right? Same with my case (I'd like to believe). My chin does have that demarcation (in some lighting), it's just not protrusive enough because of how protrusive my lips are.
 
brutal, but pretty much all blacks have this, that wouldn't mean all of them tongue thrusted during formative years right? Same with my case (I'd like to believe). My chin does have that demarcation (in some lighting), it's just not protrusive enough because of how protrusive my lips are.
Probably not but I couldn’t really say for sure, do you have an overbite?
 
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Probably not but I couldn’t really say for sure, do you have an overbite?
nah but a slight overjet, idk how many mm, but I was told "it's very minor" he recommended braces but also said it's not necessary

strange because I thought I had normal occlusion, idk if he was bullshitting for shekels

also does everyone with big lips have flared incisors? Or just a forward grown alveolar process?
 
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brutal, but pretty much all blacks have this, that wouldn't mean all of them tongue thrusted during formative years right? Same with my case (I'd like to believe). My chin does have that demarcation (in some lighting), it's just not protrusive enough because of how protrusive my lips are.
Product 1597 main original 1419362494

I think there has to be a genetic factor for why blacks have it. Like even in these skulls, Africans have the largest overjet. But for most other races, it's probably largely environmental
 
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nah but a slight overjet, idk how many mm, but I was told "it's very minor" he recommended braces but also said it's not necessary

strange because I thought I had normal occlusion, idk if he was bullshitting for shekels

also does everyone with big lips have flared incisors? Or just a forward grown alveolar process?
Tbh it might just mainly be your lips itsself and that they are more protrusive than avg and not have much to do with bone/teeth aetiologies
 
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brutal, but pretty much all blacks have this, that wouldn't mean all of them tongue thrusted during formative years right? Same with my case (I'd like to believe). My chin does have that demarcation (in some lighting), it's just not protrusive enough because of how protrusive my lips are.
Blacks have longer tongues then Caucasian people do that's why they have this protrusion.
There is nowhere else for their tongue to go in their mouth. I am caucasian and have a short wide tongue. That is why my face is wide and recessed as I didn't know anything about mewing growing up. Also a lot of black people especially women have a gap between their front teeth because their tongues are long and there is nowhere else for their tongue to go so they put their tongue between their teeth when they swallow.
 
so theoretically permanent very subtle teeth grinding would improve your face over the long run considering you are not old enough to have your sutures close?
 
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