Reminder that a laterally grown, tall face is masculine and dimorphic

[Deleted member 2157]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Teresa_Steele/publication/268444073_Comment_on_Craniofacial_Feminization_Social_Tolerance_and_the_Origins_of_Behavioral_Modernity/links/546b38870cf20dedafd52758.pdf

Elevated levels of circulating testosterone beginning at puberty in males, on the other hand, tend to predominately affect facial elongation and brow ridge development.

Individuals with higher adult levels of salivary testosterone tend to have superoinferiorly longer faces and more pronounced brows, with brows that are also mediolaterally expanded (with right and left sides tending toward fusing at midline)—a facial morphology that is absent in the masculinized faces of males with low 2D:4D ratios who do not have elevated levels of circulating testosterone (Schaefer et al. 2005).

In males with delayed puberty, treatment with exogenous testosterone has been found to increase upper and total facial height

Figure 1. Craniofacial feminization in Homo sapiens. The 110–90 Ka year old male specimen Skhul 5 (left) in lateral (top) and frontal (bottom) views, compared to that of a recent African male (right), showing the large brow ridges and long and narrow, masculinized face characteristic of MSA/MP-associated modern humans. Both specimens have been scaled to the same nasionbregma height and aligned on those landmarks

This doesn't disprove FWHR being dimorphic and influenced by prenatal testosterone either, as FWHR is specifically about a compact midface, not the facial length overall.

 

[eyearea]

 

[Deleted member 3853]

Cope

 

[Deleted member 2157]

View attachment 684839

his face is relatively elongated though

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Viewing This Thread (Looksmaxers: 32, Bluepilled: 7)

 

[MisterMercedes]

This is again just describing the importance of a tall ramus. Midface length has nothing to do with testosterone.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

This is again just describing the importance of a tall ramus. Midface length has nothing to do with testosterone.

Read my post again. It's not mentioning the midface specifically anywhere.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Read my post again. It's not mentioning the midface specifically anywhere.

Good. So facial height and testosterone is literally just ramus length.

 

[MansNotHot]

I have all of that shit, still recessed mandible.
Fuck my stupid cranial angle

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Good. So facial height and testosterone is literally just ramus length.

It's not just ramus length, literally no idea where you got that from. It elongates the entire face.

 

[MisterMercedes]

It's not ramus length, literally no idea where you got that from. It elongates the entire face.

Show me an “elongated face” that doesn’t either have a medium/long midface, a tall ramus, or both.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Show me an “elongated face” that doesn’t either have a medium/long midface, a tall ramus, or both.

From the OP, if you bothered checking the images. Large, compact midface, but tall face in general.

 

[MisterMercedes]

View attachment 684856
From the OP, if you bothered checking the images. Large, compact midface, but tall face in general.

He has a tall ramus:

 

[MisterMercedes]

And how are you measuring a skull’s midface ratio?

 

[Deleted member 2157]

He has a tall ramus:

And how are you measuring a skull’s midface ratio?

View attachment 684859

He does, but his entire splachocranium is long.
Zygo to zygo, glabella to where his top lip would be. It's about 1.8.

 

[MisterMercedes]

He does, but his entire splachocranium is long.
Zygo to zygo, glabella to his where top lip would be. It's about 1.8.

That’s compact, not long, and you literally just described FWHR which you previously said wasn’t related to testosterone.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

That’s compact, not long, and you literally just described FWHR which you previously said wasn’t related to testosterone.

a facial morphology that is absent in the masculinized faces of males with low 2D:4D ratios who do not have elevated levels of circulating testosterone (Schaefer et al. 2005).
This means that pubertal testosterone elongates the entire face, not prenatal testosterone - and FWHR is associated with prenatal testosterone.

His midface was compact but his entire face (from brow ridge to bottom of chin) was long

 

[MisterMercedes]

a facial morphology that is absent in the masculinized faces of males with low 2D:4D ratios who do not have elevated levels of circulating testosterone (Schaefer et al. 2005).
This means that pubertal testosterone elongates the entire face, not prenatal testosterone - and FWHR is associated with prenatal testosterone.

His midface was compact but his entire face (from brow ridge to bottom of chin) was long

Got it but that’s just because he has a tall ramus. If it was short his face wouldn’t be “elongated”. As I said, “elongated face” is either a tall ramus, medium/long midface, or both.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Got it but that’s just because he has a tall ramus. If it was short his face wouldn’t be “elongated”. As I said, “elongated face” is either a tall ramus, medium/long midface, or both.

Yeah a lot of it is lower third height (chin, mandible length and ramus height) but it also seems to be philtrum and even nose proportionally to some extent

 

[MisterMercedes]

Yeah a lot of it is lower third height (chin, mandible length and ramus height) but it also seems to be philtrum and even nose proportionally to some extent

Philtrum and nose are midface length. If you have a short midface, your overall facial height will be reduced and vice verse.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Philtrum and nose are midface length. If you have a short midface, your overall facial height will be reduced and vice verse.

A tall overall face and a compact midface are not mutually exclusive, see Sean O'Pry or the Skhul skull etc.

 

[MisterMercedes]

A tall overall face and a compact midface are not mutually exclusive, see Sean O'Pry or the Skhul skull etc.

Sean’s face is not very tall and his midface is on the low side of compact. It comes from a short philtrum rather than a medium length nose, and philtrum doesn’t influence facial thirds.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Sean’s face is not very tall and his midface is on the low side of compact. It comes from a short philtrum rather than a medium length nose, and philtrum doesn’t influence facial thirds.

He has a tall face but his midface ratio is 1.1 iirc

 

[Deleted member 4797]

 

[Deleted member 2157]

View attachment 684883

young Javier Bardem is a better example, tall face like bibi but his midface is more compact

 

[MisterMercedes]

View attachment 684882
He has a tall face but his midface ratio is 1.1 iirc

No it’s not. The average normie has a taller face then him:

O’ Pry’s compact midface comes from a short philtrum rather than a short nose, and philtrum doesn’t affect facial thirds.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

No it’s not. The average normie has a taller face then him:
View attachment 684885
O’ Pry’s compact midface comes from a short philtrum rather than a short nose, and philtrum doesn’t affect facial thirds.

How doesn't philtrum affect facial thirds?
That asian guy just has a long midface, sean's face is overall tall

 

[MisterMercedes]

How doesn't philtrum affect facial thirds?
That asian guy just has a long midface, sean's face is overall tall
View attachment 684887

No, the Asian guy’s face is overall taller than O’ Pry’s, not just his midface:

Philtrum length doesn’t affect facial thirds as facial thirds are hairline to bottom of eyebrows, eyebrows to bottom of nose, bottom of nose to bottom of chin. Philtrum length plays no role in that.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

No, the Asian guy’s face is overall taller than O’ Pry’s, not just his midface:

View attachment 684889
Philtrum length doesn’t affect facial thirds as facial thirds are hairline to bottom of eyebrows, eyebrows to bottom of nose, bottom of nose to bottom of chin. Philtrum length plays no role in that.

Sean's forehead and lower third is visibly taller, making him face taller overall.

Philtrum length is part of the midface in both FWHR and midface ratio. Sean has a high facial index too.

 

[Deleted member 4797]

young Javier Bardem is a better example, tall face like bibi but his midface is more compact

long nose too imo

they simply have big heads lol, wide + long, which is the most masculine.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

long nose too imo

they simply have big heads lol, wide + long, which is the most masculine.

Yeah, that look along with a compact midface like bardem is incredibly dimorphic and signifies high amounts of growth hormone

 

[000]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Teresa_Steele/publication/268444073_Comment_on_Craniofacial_Feminization_Social_Tolerance_and_the_Origins_of_Behavioral_Modernity/links/546b38870cf20dedafd52758.pdf

Elevated levels of circulating testosterone beginning at puberty in males, on the other hand, tend to predominately affect facial elongation and brow ridge development.

Individuals with higher adult levels of salivary testosterone tend to have superoinferiorly longer faces and more pronounced brows, with brows that are also mediolaterally expanded (with right and left sides tending toward fusing at midline)—a facial morphology that is absent in the masculinized faces of males with low 2D:4D ratios who do not have elevated levels of circulating testosterone (Schaefer et al. 2005).

In males with delayed puberty, treatment with exogenous testosterone has been found to increase upper and total facial height

View attachment 684828

Figure 1. Craniofacial feminization in Homo sapiens. The 110–90 Ka year old male specimen Skhul 5 (left) in lateral (top) and frontal (bottom) views, compared to that of a recent African male (right), showing the large brow ridges and long and narrow, masculinized face characteristic of MSA/MP-associated modern humans. Both specimens have been scaled to the same nasionbregma height and aligned on those landmarks

This doesn't disprove FWHR being dimorphic and influenced by prenatal testosterone either, as FWHR is specifically about a compact midface, not the facial length overall.

Tall faces = high-class.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Sean's forehead and lower third is visibly taller, making him face taller overall.

Philtrum length is part of the midface in both FWHR and midface ratio. Sean has a high facial index too.

Yes but it doesn’t actually affect facial thirds or overall facial height. It affects midface length and nose to philtrum + chin to philtrum.

Sean may have a taller certain facial third but his face is overall shorter than the Asian guy’s.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

Yes but it doesn’t actually affect facial thirds or overall facial height. It affects midface length and nose to philtrum + chin to philtrum.

Sean may have a taller certain facial third but his face is overall shorter than the Asian guy’s.

How would it not affect actual facial height when it's an important part of the face?

It doesn't look that way. The asian guy just has a disproportionately long midface.

 

[0Ace0]

https://www.researchgate.net/profile/Teresa_Steele/publication/268444073_Comment_on_Craniofacial_Feminization_Social_Tolerance_and_the_Origins_of_Behavioral_Modernity/links/546b38870cf20dedafd52758.pdf

Elevated levels of circulating testosterone beginning at puberty in males, on the other hand, tend to predominately affect facial elongation and brow ridge development.

Individuals with higher adult levels of salivary testosterone tend to have superoinferiorly longer faces and more pronounced brows, with brows that are also mediolaterally expanded (with right and left sides tending toward fusing at midline)—a facial morphology that is absent in the masculinized faces of males with low 2D:4D ratios who do not have elevated levels of circulating testosterone (Schaefer et al. 2005).

In males with delayed puberty, treatment with exogenous testosterone has been found to increase upper and total facial height

View attachment 684828

Figure 1. Craniofacial feminization in Homo sapiens. The 110–90 Ka year old male specimen Skhul 5 (left) in lateral (top) and frontal (bottom) views, compared to that of a recent African male (right), showing the large brow ridges and long and narrow, masculinized face characteristic of MSA/MP-associated modern humans. Both specimens have been scaled to the same nasionbregma height and aligned on those landmarks

This doesn't disprove FWHR being dimorphic and influenced by prenatal testosterone either, as FWHR is specifically about a compact midface, not the facial length overall.

It lengthens the ramus
Combine that with high prenatal T and you've got a robust DOM skull

 

[Deleted member 2157]

It lengthens the ramus
Combine that with high prenatal T and you've got a robust DOM skull

Ramus, chin and mandible all seem to get elongated

 

[0Ace0]

Ramus, chin and mandible all seem to get elongated

The ramus is part of the mandible, the only way the rest of the mandible can grow is by forward growth (unless you're a mouthbreather)

 

[Deleted member 2157]

The ramus is part of the mandible, the only way the rest of the mandible can grow is by forward growth (unless you're a mouthbreather)

That's also true. I've seen guys who have massive brow ridges and dimorphic noses/chins but short mandibles from recession. But testosterone influences growth hormone in males, which influences maxillary forward growth

 

[MisterMercedes]

How would it not affect actual facial height when it's an important part of the face?

It doesn't look that way. The asian guy just has a disproportionately long midface.

No, the actual line that is his total facial height is longer than O’ Pry’s.

 

[MisterMercedes]

That's also true. I've seen guys who have massive brow ridges and dimorphic noses/chins but short mandibles from recession. But testosterone influences growth hormone in males, which influences maxillary forward growth

“Short mandible” is almost always recessed chin or positional recession, not actual jaw length. Vertical jaw projection (ramus) is just as important as forward projection.

 

[MisterMercedes]

How would it not affect actual facial height when it's an important part of the face?

It doesn't look that way. The asian guy just has a disproportionately long midface.

Because it doesn’t. Hairline determines how much of your head is visible, nose length determines how long the middle of your face is (middle third), and chin length determines how long your lower third is. Philtrum Length influences lots of other ratios but not total facial height.

 

[Blackout.xl]

I have a longer, wide skull with short midface

 

[Bewusst]

No, the Asian guy’s face is overall taller than O’ Pry’s, not just his midface:

View attachment 684889
Philtrum length doesn’t affect facial thirds as facial thirds are hairline to bottom of eyebrows, eyebrows to bottom of nose, bottom of nose to bottom of chin. Philtrum length plays no role in that.

What drugs are you on?

 

[nvck_pilled]

View attachment 684882
He has a tall face but his midface ratio is 1.1 iirc

it's tall because his chin height and wide bigonial and weak cheekbones, not his midface

 

[Deleted member 2157]

it's tall because his chin height and wide bigonial and weak cheekbones, not his midface

He doesn't have weak cheekbones.

 

[Deleted member 2157]

No, the actual line that is his total facial height is longer than O’ Pry’s.

No it isn't, that's just your wack measurement of it. It's visible that apart from the asian guy's long midface (longer than Sean's) his actual face is shorter.

Because it doesn’t. Hairline determines how much of your head is visible, nose length determines how long the middle of your face is (middle third), and chin length determines how long your lower third is. Philtrum Length influences lots of other ratios but not total facial height.

No it doesn't, as the forehead is part of the face. Philtrum has always been part of facial ratios including height and this is just your personal criteria for it.

“Short mandible” is almost always recessed chin or positional recession, not actual jaw length.

It isn't. It's actually the other way round most of the time.

 

[nvck_pilled]

He doesn't have weak cheekbones.

they aren't prominent or wide, get dwarfed by his browridge and maxilla

 

[MisterMercedes]

What drugs are you on?

Great rebuttal!

 

[MisterMercedes]

No it isn't, that's just your wack measurement of it. It's visible that apart from the asian guy's long midface (longer than Sean's) his actual face is shorter.

No it doesn't, as the forehead is part of the face. Philtrum has always been part of facial ratios including height and this is just your personal criteria for it.

It isn't. It's actually the other way round most of the time.

The actual line that measures his total face length is longer than O’ Pry’s.

It’s not my own criteria. It’s the standardized idea of facial thirds.

Wrong. Most adults have around the same mandible length when chin projection isn’t taken into account. Positional recession and chin projection are almost always the culprits for a “short jaw”.

 

[MisterMercedes]

Also O’ Pry’s midface is not 1.1. It’s 1.05-1.08.