[Guide] The Ultimate pubertymaxxing guide, an introduction into androgens and growth factors, and how to apply them.

Dyorotic2

Dyorotic2

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Preface:
I've had a lot of questions in my pm's recently regarding growth hormone, IGF-1, and androgens.
specifically, people asking me for sources and stacks, how they work, etc, I'm hoping this guide will be able to answer as many of your questions as possible.

Disclaimer:
this thread is going to be very long, I'm going, to begin with explaining each of these chemicals, their mechanisms, and functions whilst also citing studies,
if you're wanting to learn how to apply these chemicals to your protocol than skip down to where I begin talking about methods.

Introduction:

Okay, so this in this thread I'm going to do my best at explaining how growth factors and androgens
affect facial development, induce sexual dimorphism and vertical growth, I'm going to begin
explaining the biological mechanisms of these hormones and then how you can apply them
cost-effectively.


HGH:
Somatropin, commonly referred to as HGH or GH is a 191 amino acid chain that is produced by the pituitary gland,
this peptide stimulates growth, cell reproduction, and cell regeneration in humans and other animals. It is thus important in human development.
GH also stimulates the production of IGF-1 and increases the concentration of glucose and free fatty acids. It belongs to a family of hormones known as the growth hormone family. This also includes prolactin (PRL) and placental lactogen. Despite the obvious differences in function, these hormones share a very similar structure. Likewise, GH and PRL are the only two non-tropic hormones synthesized and released from the anterior pituitary gland. (So yes if you're taking cabergoline you will inhibit growth hormone as they are from the same family).

Growth hormone itself isn't actually what induces growth, it's the metabolites of somatropin that induce cell proliferation, hyperplasia, and hypertrophy.
this class of growth factors is called insulin-like growth factors, they are molecularly structured similar to that of insulin, somatropin is needed for the creation of IGF's within the liver. IGF-2 is the primary growth factor responsible for fetal development, whereas IGF-1 is the primary growth factor responsible for inducing growth within adolescent children. (more on insulin-like growth factors later).

somatropin is needed for the development of our bodies, the reason us looksmaxxers are obsessed with it is because of dimorphic growth-related effects
that are induced by the insulin-like growth factor family of hormones.

somatropin's effect on craniofacial development within children.
Fifty-seven patients (33 boys and 24 girls; age range 4.5 to 16.7 years) with GHD were investigated and categorized into three groups according to the duration of GH therapy: the untreated group, the short-term therapy group, and the long-term therapy group. Their lateral cephalometric radiographs were studied, and craniofacial measurements were assessed by age and sex by using matched standard deviation scores.
In the untreated group, the anterior cranial base, total facial height, maxillary length, mandibular total length, mandibular body length, and ramus height were smaller than the standard values. In comparison with the untreated group, the long-term therapy group had a significantly larger upper facial height (P < .05), maxillary length (P < .01), and ramus height (P < .01) measurements.
Children who received long-term GH replacement therapy showed increased growth of the craniofacial skeleton, especially the maxilla and ramus. These findings suggest that GH accelerates craniofacial development, which improves occlusion and the facial profile.
Yes, these children did have GHDD (growth hormone deficiency disorder), but this doesn't disprove that the usage of exogenous somatropin
can induce craniofacial growth. These children would have been administrated growth hormone dosages that would have aligned with normal children's endogenous production. Our goal with growth hormone is to increase the endogenous production of IGF-1 way above super physiological levels in order to affect our craniofacial growth. Keep in mind, in this study the children were dosed 0.5IU daily, that's around 15-fold less than what I suggest you should dose daily, and these children still reap the positive craniofacial benefits.

The abstract of a study based on how the GH/IGF-1 axis influences bone formation, growth, and remodeling.
Growth hormone is an important regulator of bone homeostasis. In childhood, it determines the longitudinal bone growth, skeletal maturation, and acquisition of bone mass. In adulthood, it is necessary to maintain bone mass throughout life. Although an association between craniofacial and somatic development has been clearly established, craniofacial growth involves complex interactions of genes, hormones, and the environment.
somatropin's effect on hard tissue, bone formation, and osteoclasts.
The development of the dentition is an integral part of craniofacial growth, even though it is not closely related to general growth. At the cellular level, the differentiation of odontoblasts from the neural crest cells is a long process comparable with the process of osteoblast differentiation. GH is known to increase the formation of bone and hard tissues of the tooth (dentine, cementum, and enamel)
somatropin effects on bone formation through osteoblasts.
GH and IGF-I are anabolic hormones and have the potential to regulate bone modeling and remodeling. Growth factors that regulate local bone metabolism include growth hormone (GH), insulin-like growth factor-I (IGF-I), epidermal growth factor (EGF) and interleukin-1 alpha (IL-1alpha). GH stimulates the proliferation in a number of osteoblastic cell lines and primary isolated cells of various origins including human cells
The GH/IGF-1 axis and it's interaction with androgens when it comes to bone formation.
GH/IGF-I axis influences the loading-related bone formation modulating the responsiveness of bone tissue to mechanical stimuli by changing thresholds for bone formation. Cortical bone formation rate and cancellous bone volume increase when bone is reloaded and IGF-I is added. GH/IGF-I axis interacts with sex steroids in periosteal apposition challenging the traditional concept of androgen- stimulatory and estrogen-inhibitory effects on periosteal expansion
GH affects muscle tissues too, which regulate cortical bone geometry. Muscle enlargement is accompanied by increasing muscle strength leading to secondary adaptive bone gain. Growth of the facial bones such as maxilla and mandible occurs partly from direct remodeling of the surfaces of the bone.

Insulin-like growth factors, specifically somatomedin-C (IGF-1):
IGF-1 is produced all the way throughout life. The highest rates of IGF-1 production occur during the pubertal growth spurt. The lowest levels occur in infancy and old age. This is why children grow rapidly during puberty, somatropin is at an all-time high, meaning more conversion to IGF-1, typically in healthy children, the baseline IGF-1 scoring is between 250-500ng/dl, although higher IGF-1 scoring is possible with exogenous intervention.

IGF-1 is a primary mediator of the effects of somatropin (GH), growth hormone is released into the bloodstream, and then stimulates the liver to produce insulin-like growth factors, we are specifically focusing on IGF-1. These IGF's then stimulate systemic body growth and has growth-promoting effects on almost every cell in the body, especially skeletal muscle, cartilage, bone, liver, etc... In addition to the insulin-like effects, IGF-1 can also regulate cellular DNA synthesis. IGF-1 is our friend, we want our levels to be sky-high during puberty to reap all of the dimorphic growth and surpass our genetic potential, there are some road blockages though, along with the insulin-like growth factor family comes the IGFBP's (insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) yeah it's a mouth full jfl. These proteins bind to IGF-1 and inhibit it from attaching to the IGF-1R, basically, it renders our IGF-1 useless within the body. These proteins, unfortunately, have a high affinity to bind to IGF's, there are counter measurements to these IGFBP's though, stay tuned.

Protein intake increases IGF-1 levels in humans, independent of total calorie consumption. Factors that are known to cause variation in the levels of growth hormone (GH) and IGF-1 in the circulation include insulin levels, genetic make-up, the time of day, age, sex, exercise status, stress levels, nutrition level and body mass index, disease state, ethnicity, and estrogen status.

I'm not going to be citing studies for IGF-1, as GH and IGF-1 fall in the same category, the GH/IGF-1 axis is what influences growth.

Androgens, androgenic metabolites, and pro-hormones:
despite the common knowledge surrounding testosterone there seems to be less appreciation when it comes to other androgens. Androgens are synthesized from cholesterol and are produced primarily in the gonads (testicles and ovaries) and also in the adrenal glands to a small extent. The testicles produce a much higher quantity than the ovaries in females. Dimorphic growth is heavily dependent on androgens, specifically testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), I'm going to be underling each androgen, and their biological mechanisms.

1581061839917.png

Testosterone:
testosterone is the primary male sex hormone that is responsible for differentiating a male fetus from a female fetus, In male humans, testosterone plays a key role in the development of reproductive tissues such as testes and prostate, as well as promoting sexual dimorphisms such as increased muscle mass, bone mass and the growth of body hair. The pituitary gland located within the brain produces a signaling chemical called luteinizing hormone (LH), LH signals the Leydig cells within the testes to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. Production of luteinizing hormone spikes during puberty, sending multiple signals to the Leydig cells to produce more testosterone, in turn, promoting masculinization and dimorphism to occur.

the effect of low dose testosterone on the craniofacial development in children with delayed puberty.
Craniofacial growth was investigated in boys treated with low-dose testosterone for delayed puberty (> 14 years old; testicular volume < 4 ml; n = 7) and compared with controls (12-14 years; n = 37). Cephalometric radiographs, statural height and pubertal stage were recorded at the start of the study and after 1 year. Craniofacial growth was assessed by nine linear measurements. At the beginning of the study, statural height, mandibular ramus length, upper anterior face height, and total cranial base length were significantly shorter in the delayed puberty boys than in the controls. After 1 year, the growth rate of the statural height, total mandibular length, ramus length, and upper and total anterior face height was significantly higher in the treated boys than in the untreated height-matched controls (n = 7). The craniofacial measurements were similar in the treated boys as compared with the controls. These results show that statural height and craniofacial dimensions are low in boys with delayed puberty. Low doses of testosterone accelerate statural and craniofacial growth, particularly in the delayed components, thus leading towards a normalization of facial dimensions.
Keep in mind, these children didn't have zero testosterone, they were just experiencing delayed puberty, low dose testosterone was enough to kickstart their craniofacial development.


1581061794838.png

Dihydrotestosterone:
DHT is biologically important for sexual differentiation of the male genitalia during embryogenesis, maturation of the penis and scrotum at puberty, growth of facial, body and pubic hair, and development and maintenance of the prostate gland and seminal vesicles. It is produced from testosterone by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) in select tissues and is the primary androgen in the genitals, prostate gland, seminal vesicles, skin, and hair follicles. Dihydrotestosterone can have up to 5x the potency of testosterone when it comes to inducing androgenic dimorphism, that isn't to say that testosterone isn't important though.

1581061761910.png

Androsterone:
Androsterone is an androgenic steroid derived via the activity of the enzyme 5-AR and is a downstream metabolite of the more potent androgen DHT. Like all 5-AR derived androgens, androsterone displays anti-estrogenic and anti-glucocorticoid activity and in addition, serves as a pro-hormone for DHT and other potent androgens. In addition, androsterone is a neurosteroid with potent GABA agonist activity and is known to function as a pheromone in many animal species including humans. It has been shown to possess anti-depressant and anti-proliferative effects. Perhaps most importantly, it has been found to act like as a potent thyroid mimetic and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans.

androsterone and its effect on the masculinization of male fetuses.
androsterone significantly affects masculinization within mammalian fetuses. Masculinization of the external genitalia in humans is subject to dihydrotestosterone (DHT) derived via the recognized androgenic pathway and also via a backdoor pathway. Spectrometric studies identify androsterone as the main backdoor androgen in the human male fetus. Circulating levels are sex-dependent, DHT being essentially absent in the female, in which titers of backdoor intermediates also are very low.
In males, backdoor intermediates occur mainly in the liver and adrenal of the fetus, and in the placenta — hardly at all in the testis. Instead, progesterone in the placenta is the main backdoor substrate for androgen synthesis. This also is consistent with the observation that placental insufficiency has been associated with disruptions of the development of fetal genitalia.

1581070503817.png

dehydroepiandrosterone
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), also known as androstenolone, is an endogenous steroid hormone. It is one of the most abundant circulating steroids in humans, in whom it is produced in the adrenal glands, the gonads, and the brain. It functions as a metabolic intermediate in the biosynthesis of the androgen and estrogen sex steroids both in the gonads and in various other tissues. On its own, it's a very weak androgen, but it potently converts to testosterone within certain tissue, it is more abundant within females than males as it also converts to estrogen.

How to apply these hormones to your protocol:

let's begin with the growth hormone/igf1 aspect to our protocol, our main goal is to induce craniofacial growth (specifically maxillary and mandibular growth), vertical growth, and dimorphism, this can be achieved via a multitude of method, here we go.

How to increase IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological natural range
through the usage of exogenous GH and PEPTIDES:


Method 1:
Recombinant growth hormone:

increasing our IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological range is simple, although I disagree with some of
@Extra Chromosome's opinions on heightmaxxing, I'm going to do my best to express my opinion as I have experience and knowledge within the field of GH and Peptides.

To begin with, I personally think the usage of recombinant growth hormone (synthetic bioidentical somatropin) is the best and most practical way to increase IGF-1 and induce growth, that's not to say that peptides don't have their place, but they aren't as effective as HGH (I'll go into more detail later). Recombinant growth hormone is expensive, very expensive, but if you source it correctly you can bypass the majority of the cost issues.

I'd suggest dosing HGH at around 5IU-8IU's daily. This will skyrocket your IGF-1, even more so if you're a teenager as the conversion rate from somatropin to IGF-1 is higher, in most growing teenagers this amount of GH will put you into the 700-900ng/dl range for IGF-1 scoring, at this level cell proliferation, hyperplasia and osteoblast/osteoclast activity will increase dramatically. In other words, you'll grow, vertically and horizontally. If your soul usage of HGH is for height gains than either exemestane, letrozole or Arimidex will suffice for aromatase inhibition.

To sum method 1 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor of your choice.

Method 2:
HGH combined with IGF-1 LR3 and IGF-1 DES.

the combination of both exogenous GH and exogenous IGF-1 is amazing. As I've mentioned above alongside insulin-like growth factors comes IGFBP's (Insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) IGFPB's have a high affinity to bind onto IGF-1 and IGF-2 within the bloodstream rendering them useless and unable to attach to the IGF-1R and IGF-2R, meaning a small portion of the HGH that we inject into ourselves is going to waste as these proteins are rendering the IGF-1 unable to function, there is a way around this.

the polypeptides IGF-LR3 and IGF-DES have a low affinity to bind to the IGFBP's, meaning they are up to 3x more potent than regular endogenous IGF-1. IGF-1LR3 also happens to have a half-life of up to 30 hours. IGF-DES is even more potent than LR3, the only downside is that it has a 30-minute half-life before it is metabolized by the body, DES also happens to be more localized, so we are going to opt for LR3 in this method as it is more systemic than DES. The combination of HGH and exogenous IGF-1 will guarantee growth. (if your plates are open of course).

To sum method 2 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
IGF-1 LR3 100mcg ED
(optional) IGF-1 DES 50mcg ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor

Method 3
Peptide protocol.

peptides can be great for increasing serum levels of growth hormone and inevitably increasing IGF-1 scoring within the blood, the reason why I prefer synthetic GH is that the pituitary gland can only produce so much GH, meaning there is a limit to the number of signals it can take to produce a certain amount of somatropin. For example, you could inject more exogenous GH than you could make endogenous GH with the help of peptides, I hope that makes sense. Peptides can still boost your IGF-1 scoring beyond the natural range, some peptides even stimulate the Pi3k pathways, which is a bonus.

peptides are split up into 2 categories, GHRH's and GHRP's, our bodies make growth hormone-releasing hormone to signal the somatroph cells to produce somatropin within the pituitary gland, GHRH peptides basically tell the pituitary to release GH, growth hormone-releasing peptides basically amplify the production of growth hormone that is being secreted, stacking both a GHRH and a GHRP is necessary for increasing IGF-1 as they synergize well.

here's the peptide protocol that I recommend, whilst on this stack my IGF-1 came back at over 800ng/dl, in that time period I grew an inch and a half in height within 2 and a half months.

week A:

morning: ghrp-2 100mcg + mod-grf(1-29) 100mcg.

mid-day: ghrp-2 100mcg + mod-grf(1-29) 100mcg.

night: ghrp-2 100mcg + mod-grf(1-29) 100mcg.

week B-C

morning: hexarelin 100mcg + mod-grf(1-29) 100mcg.

mid-day: hexarelin100mcg + mod-grf(1-29) 100mcg.

night: hexarelin 100mcg + mod-grf(1-29) 100mcg.

(optional) an aromatase inhibitor of your choice.
switching back and forth from hexarelin and GHRP-2 is necessary as desensitization will occur whilst using hexarelin at any dosage for longer than 14 days. Having 14 days off and 7 days on allows your body to sensitize to the peptide again. I do not recommend the usage of CJC DAC as it has been proven to cause damage to the pituitary gland with chronic usage.

Okay, that sums up the GH/IGF-1 section, overall I'd say if you're on a budget than peptides is the route you should take, if you have more money to spend than go for HGH if you're really fucking determined than take the HGH/IGF-1LR3 route.

The good thing about working with somatropin and peptides is that exogenous usage won't cause a negative feedback loop to occur, meaning if you discontinue the usage of growth hormone you won't feel like shit as you would with testosterone (unless you do a correct PCT). Your endogenous somatropin will begin producing normally again.

How to increase endogenous androgen activity without causing suppression
or shutdown from occurring:

working with androgens can be tricky and dangerous, you can take two routes with androgens, you can either take metabolites and non-suppressive prohormones or you can take androgens like testosterone and cause a shutdown.

the usage of androgens such as dehydroepiandrosterone and androsterone along with progesterone can be of great benefit to those who are looking
to masculinize themselves without using testosterone. dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is one of the most abundant steroid hormones within the human body, it is produced by the adrenals and can be converted to either testosterone or estrogen. The supplementation of exogenous DHEA alone can lead to both an increase in estrogen and testosterone, combining DHEA with androsterone is a good idea as androsterone is a very powerful anti-aromatase, estrogen isn't the enemy, it's just having high estrogen is a negative, inhibiting the aromatase enzyme from converting testosterone from converting to estrogen allows for the DHEA to convert into testosterone smoothly without a spike in estrogen as your original estrogen will just be replaced.

1581063078287.png

The usage of Delta-sleep-inducing-peptide to increase natural testosterone:
my recent findings suggest that the usage of the delta-sleep inducing peptide (DSIP) can greatly benefit steroid users who are trying to regain their LH production.
DSIP increases the amount of gonadotropin that is being secreted at night time, gonadotropin signals the pituitary gland to produce LH, that LH than signals the Leydig cells to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. More gonadotropin signaling = more luteinizing hormone signaling meaning more testosterone being made. DSIP also happens to block corticotropin from releasing cortisol, meaning cortisol cannot antagonize testosterone, leaving you with more testosterone to circulate the bloodstream. DSIP also blocks the release of somatostatin (growth hormone inhibiting hormone), somatostatins role is to lower growth hormone if it raises to high, so by blocking the release of this hormone we are preventing our blood serum level of GH dropping.

Delta-sleep inducing peptide is a must for those looking to increase testosterone without the usage of AAS or those who are using peptides and/or Recombinant GH, as it has potent somatostatin inhibiting properties.
check out my thread on DSIP

The usage of HCG
human chorionic gonadotropin is an LH mimic that can be injected subcutaneously, it acts the exact same way that LH does in that it signals the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, HCG will keep your balls from shrinking if you're running testosterone on an AAS cycle. It can increase testosterone but it has a tendency to also increase estrogen, in combination with testosterone it can induce dimorphism greatly, whilst maintaining testicular functions and fertility, it can also be implemented to make your PCT easier.

The usage of exogenous testosterone:
the usage of exogenous testosterone can greatly induce sexual dimorphism, increase bone density, anabolism, protein synthesis, and nitrogen retention. Whilst also saturated the androgen receptors. There are obvious downsides to the usage, but if done effectively there shouldn't be any issues. For teenagers willing to run testosterone, (I don't condone the usage) I'd suggest using testosterone base (no ester attached) dissolved into DMSO applied to the skin, I'd also suggest that you take the best measure to run a safe and sought out PCT.

The usage of exogenous dihydrotestosterone (androstanolone)
dihydrotestosterone can be very beneficial for those who are in the midst of puberty, at the correct dosages it isn't very suppressive and if minimal suppression occurs, then you can easily bounce back. Androstanolone is a synthetic DHT that is bioidentical to DHT. The usage of dihydrotestosterone will have an intense masculinizing effect, if you're in puberty it may affect the size of your penis and frame.

You can make a transdermal concoction with DMSO and androstanolone, with a high absorption rate. Androstanolone is an extremely androgenic steroid hormone, it has highly anti-estrogenic properties so be cautious with the dosages if you don't want to crash your E2 levels.
check out my thread on dihydrotestosterone

conclusion
a combination of both high dosages of either recombinant growth hormone or peptides alongside the optimization or exogenous usage of androgens is synergistic when it comes to craniofacial forward growth, sexual dimorphism and vertical growth.

here's my current stack for perspective.
7.5iu's of HGH daily (puretropin)
25-50mg of androstanolone daily (made transdermal from raw stanolone powder)
10mg of androsterone for the neurological benefits and basal temperature increase, along with metabolism stimulation
HCG to keep balls going and to make PCT easier, 250i-400u weekly, (this dosage avoids Leydig cell desensitization)
contemplating adding a small testosterone base to avoid a crash in E2 from high dose dihydrotestosterone.
this took like 3 days to make because I'm a lazy cunt, anyways hoped you gained something from it.

text (1).gif


hoping that'll answer some questions for you guys.
@JustTrynaGrow @Slyfex8 @draco @Don't Forget to mew @Tom2004 @Crazzen8 @ht-normie-ascending @Dr Shekelberg @forwardgrowth @maxmendietta @PubertyMaxxer @apollothegun @KKK

 
Piro

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Over if I’m 22, fuck

Gonna get an X-Ray asap, I’d be so happy if I were~6’2
 
Test

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If you're not injecting during puberty what are you doing ?
 
RAITEIII

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@Dyorotic2 one of the kings of the forum tbh. Dn red but I will later
 
Mateusz74

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What do u think of adding mk677 with the peptide stack? Wouldn’t it increase overall igf1 more a bit combined with mod grf and hexarelin
 
Theonewhowillascend

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Super high iq thread thanks op:love:
 
PubertyMaxxer

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Preface:
I've had a lot of questions in my pm's recently regarding growth hormone, IGF-1, and androgens.
specifically, people asking me for sources and stacks, how they work, etc, I'm hoping this guide will be able to answer as many of your questions as possible.

Disclaimer:
this thread is going to be very long, I'm going, to begin with explaining each of these chemicals, their mechanisms, and functions whilst also citing studies,
if you're wanting to learn how to apply these chemicals to your protocol than skip down to where I begin talking about methods.

Introduction:

Okay, so this in this thread I'm going to do my best at explaining how growth factors and androgens
affect facial development, induce sexual dimorphism and vertical growth, I'm going to begin
explaining the biological mechanisms of these hormones and then how you can apply them
cost-effectively.


HGH:
Somatropin, commonly referred to as HGH or GH is a 191 amino acid chain that is produced by the pituitary gland,
this peptide stimulates growth, cell reproduction, and cell regeneration in humans and other animals. It is thus important in human development.
GH also stimulates the production of IGF-1 and increases the concentration of glucose and free fatty acids. It belongs to a family of hormones known as the growth hormone family. This also includes prolactin (PRL) and placental lactogen. Despite the obvious differences in function, these hormones share a very similar structure. Likewise, GH and PRL are the only two non-tropic hormones synthesized and released from the anterior pituitary gland. (So yes if you're taking cabergoline you will inhibit growth hormone as they are from the same family).

Growth hormone itself isn't actually what induces growth, it's the metabolites of somatropin that induce cell proliferation, hyperplasia, and hypertrophy.
this class of growth factors is called insulin-like growth factors, they are molecularly structured similar to that of insulin, somatropin is needed for the creation of IGF's within the liver. IGF-2 is the primary growth factor responsible for fetal development, whereas IGF-1 is the primary growth factor responsible for inducing growth within adolescent children. (more on insulin-like growth factors later).

somatropin is needed for the development of our bodies, the reason us looksmaxxers are obsessed with it is because of dimorphic growth-related effects
that are induced by the insulin-like growth factor family of hormones.

somatropin's effect on craniofacial development within children.




Yes, these children did have GHDD (growth hormone deficiency disorder), but this doesn't disprove that the usage of exogenous somatropin
can induce craniofacial growth. These children would have been administrated growth hormone dosages that would have aligned with normal children's endogenous production. Our goal with growth hormone is to increase the endogenous production of IGF-1 way above super physiological levels in order to affect our craniofacial growth. Keep in mind, in this study the children were dosed 0.5IU daily, that's around 15-fold less than what I suggest you should dose daily, and these children still reap the positive craniofacial benefits.

The abstract of a study based on how the GH/IGF-1 axis influences bone formation, growth, and remodeling.


somatropin's effect on hard tissue, bone formation, and osteoclasts.



somatropin effects on bone formation through osteoblasts.


The GH/IGF-1 axis and it's interaction with androgens when it comes to bone formation.




Insulin-like growth factors, specifically somatomedin-C (IGF-1):

IGF-1 is produced all the way throughout life. The highest rates of IGF-1 production occur during the pubertal growth spurt. The lowest levels occur in infancy and old age. This is why children grow rapidly during puberty, somatropin is at an all-time high, meaning more conversion to IGF-1, typically in healthy children, the baseline IGF-1 scoring is between 250-500ng/dl, although higher IGF-1 scoring is possible with exogenous intervention.

IGF-1 is a primary mediator of the effects of somatropin (GH), growth hormone is released into the bloodstream, and then stimulates the liver to produce insulin-like growth factors, we are specifically focusing on IGF-1. These IGF's then stimulate systemic body growth and has growth-promoting effects on almost every cell in the body, especially skeletal muscle, cartilage, bone, liver, etc... In addition to the insulin-like effects, IGF-1 can also regulate cellular DNA synthesis. IGF-1 is our friend, we want our levels to be sky-high during puberty to reap all of the dimorphic growth and surpass our genetic potential, there are some road blockages though, along with the insulin-like growth factor family comes the IGFBP's (insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) yeah it's a mouth full jfl. These proteins bind to IGF-1 and inhibit it from attaching to the IGF-1R, basically, it renders our IGF-1 useless within the body. These proteins, unfortunately, have a high affinity to bind to IGF's, there are counter measurements to these IGFBP's though, stay tuned.

Protein intake increases IGF-1 levels in humans, independent of total calorie consumption. Factors that are known to cause variation in the levels of growth hormone (GH) and IGF-1 in the circulation include insulin levels, genetic make-up, the time of day, age, sex, exercise status, stress levels, nutrition level and body mass index, disease state, ethnicity, and estrogen status.

I'm not going to be citing studies for IGF-1, as GH and IGF-1 fall in the same category, the GH/IGF-1 axis is what influences growth.

Androgens, androgenic metabolites, and pro-hormones:
despite the common knowledge surrounding testosterone there seems to be less appreciation when it comes to other androgens. Androgens are synthesized from cholesterol and are produced primarily in the gonads (testicles and ovaries) and also in the adrenal glands to a small extent. The testicles produce a much higher quantity than the ovaries in females. Dimorphic growth is heavily dependent on androgens, specifically testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), I'm going to be underling each androgen, and their biological mechanisms.

View attachment 258656
Testosterone:
testosterone is the primary male sex hormone that is responsible for differentiating a male fetus from a female fetus, In male humans, testosterone plays a key role in the development of reproductive tissues such as testes and prostate, as well as promoting sexual dimorphisms such as increased muscle mass, bone mass and the growth of body hair. The pituitary gland located within the brain produces a signaling chemical called luteinizing hormone (LH), LH signals the Leydig cells within the testes to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. Production of luteinizing hormone spikes during puberty, sending multiple signals to the Leydig cells to produce more testosterone, in turn, promoting masculinization and dimorphism to occur.

the effect of low dose testosterone on the craniofacial development in children with delayed puberty.


Keep in mind, these children didn't have zero testosterone, they were just experiencing delayed puberty, low dose testosterone was enough to kickstart their craniofacial development.

View attachment 258654
Dihydrotestosterone:
DHT is biologically important for sexual differentiation of the male genitalia during embryogenesis, maturation of the penis and scrotum at puberty, growth of facial, body and pubic hair, and development and maintenance of the prostate gland and seminal vesicles. It is produced from testosterone by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) in select tissues and is the primary androgen in the genitals, prostate gland, seminal vesicles, skin, and hair follicles. Dihydrotestosterone can have up to 5x the potency of testosterone when it comes to inducing androgenic dimorphism, that isn't to say that testosterone isn't important though.

View attachment 258653
Androsterone:
Androsterone is an androgenic steroid derived via the activity of the enzyme 5-AR and is a downstream metabolite of the more potent androgen DHT. Like all 5-AR derived androgens, androsterone displays anti-estrogenic and anti-glucocorticoid activity and in addition, serves as a pro-hormone for DHT and other potent androgens. In addition, androsterone is a neurosteroid with potent GABA agonist activity and is known to function as a pheromone in many animal species including humans. It has been shown to possess anti-depressant and anti-proliferative effects. Perhaps most importantly, it has been found to act like as a potent thyroid mimetic and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans.

androsterone and its effect on the masculinization of male fetuses.





View attachment 258780
dehydroepiandrosterone
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), also known as androstenolone, is an endogenous steroid hormone. It is one of the most abundant circulating steroids in humans, in whom it is produced in the adrenal glands, the gonads, and the brain. It functions as a metabolic intermediate in the biosynthesis of the androgen and estrogen sex steroids both in the gonads and in various other tissues. On its own, it's a very weak androgen, but it potently converts to testosterone within certain tissue, it is more abundant within females than males as it also converts to estrogen.

How to apply these hormones to your protocol:

let's begin with the growth hormone/igf1 aspect to our protocol, our main goal is to induce craniofacial growth (specifically maxillary and mandibular growth), vertical growth, and dimorphism, this can be achieved via a multitude of method, here we go.

How to increase IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological natural range
through the usage of exogenous GH and PEPTIDES:


Method 1:
Recombinant growth hormone:

increasing our IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological range is simple, although I disagree with some of
@Extra Chromosome's opinions on heightmaxxing, I'm going to do my best to express my opinion as I have experience and knowledge within the field of GH and Peptides.

To begin with, I personally think the usage of recombinant growth hormone (synthetic bioidentical somatropin) is the best and most practical way to increase IGF-1 and induce growth, that's not to say that peptides don't have their place, but they aren't as effective as HGH (I'll go into more detail later). Recombinant growth hormone is expensive, very expensive, but if you source it correctly you can bypass the majority of the cost issues.

I'd suggest dosing HGH at around 5IU-8IU's daily. This will skyrocket your IGF-1, even more so if you're a teenager as the conversion rate from somatropin to IGF-1 is higher, in most growing teenagers this amount of GH will put you into the 700-900ng/dl range for IGF-1 scoring, at this level cell proliferation, hyperplasia and osteoblast/osteoclast activity will increase dramatically. In other words, you'll grow, vertically and horizontally. If your soul usage of HGH is for height gains than either exemestane, letrozole or Arimidex will suffice for aromatase inhibition.

To sum method 1 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor of your choice.

Method 2:
HGH combined with IGF-1 LR3 and IGF-1 DES.

the combination of both exogenous GH and exogenous IGF-1 is amazing. As I've mentioned above alongside insulin-like growth factors comes IGFBP's (Insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) IGFPB's have a high affinity to bind onto IGF-1 and IGF-2 within the bloodstream rendering them useless and unable to attach to the IGF-1R and IGF-2R, meaning a small portion of the HGH that we inject into ourselves is going to waste as these proteins are rendering the IGF-1 unable to function, there is a way around this.

the polypeptides IGF-LR3 and IGF-DES have a low affinity to bind to the IGFBP's, meaning they are up to 3x more potent than regular endogenous IGF-1. IGF-1LR3 also happens to have a half-life of up to 30 hours. IGF-DES is even more potent than LR3, the only downside is that it has a 30-minute half-life before it is metabolized by the body, DES also happens to be more localized, so we are going to opt for LR3 in this method as it is more systemic than DES. The combination of HGH and exogenous IGF-1 will guarantee growth. (if your plates are open of course).

To sum method 2 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
IGF-1 LR3 100mcg ED
(optional) IGF-1 DES 50mcg ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor

Method 3
Peptide protocol.

peptides can be great for increasing serum levels of growth hormone and inevitably increasing IGF-1 scoring within the blood, the reason why I prefer synthetic GH is that the pituitary gland can only produce so much GH, meaning there is a limit to the number of signals it can take to produce a certain amount of somatropin. For example, you could inject more exogenous GH than you could make endogenous GH with the help of peptides, I hope that makes sense. Peptides can still boost your IGF-1 scoring beyond the natural range, some peptides even stimulate the Pi3k pathways, which is a bonus.

peptides are split up into 2 categories, GHRH's and GHRP's, our bodies make growth hormone-releasing hormone to signal the somatroph cells to produce somatropin within the pituitary gland, GHRH peptides basically tell the pituitary to release GH, growth hormone-releasing peptides basically amplify the production of growth hormone that is being secreted, stacking both a GHRH and a GHRP is necessary for increasing IGF-1 as they synergize well.

here's the peptide protocol that I recommend, whilst on this stack my IGF-1 came back at over 800ng/dl, in that time period I grew an inch and a half in height within 2 and a half months.



switching back and forth from hexarelin and GHRP-2 is necessary as desensitization will occur whilst using hexarelin at any dosage for longer than 14 days. Having 14 days off and 7 days on allows your body to sensitize to the peptide again. I do not recommend the usage of CJC DAC as it has been proven to cause damage to the pituitary gland with chronic usage.

Okay, that sums up the GH/IGF-1 section, overall I'd say if you're on a budget than peptides is the route you should take, if you have more money to spend than go for HGH if you're really fucking determined than take the HGH/IGF-1LR3 route.

The good thing about working with somatropin and peptides is that exogenous usage won't cause a negative feedback loop to occur, meaning if you discontinue the usage of growth hormone you won't feel like shit as you would with testosterone (unless you do a correct PCT). Your endogenous somatropin will begin producing normally again.

How to increase endogenous androgen activity without causing suppression
or shutdown from occurring:

working with androgens can be tricky and dangerous, you can take two routes with androgens, you can either take metabolites and non-suppressive prohormones or you can take androgens like testosterone and cause a shutdown.

the usage of androgens such as dehydroepiandrosterone and androsterone along with progesterone can be of great benefit to those who are looking
to masculinize themselves without using testosterone. dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is one of the most abundant steroid hormones within the human body, it is produced by the adrenals and can be converted to either testosterone or estrogen. The supplementation of exogenous DHEA alone can lead to both an increase in estrogen and testosterone, combining DHEA with androsterone is a good idea as androsterone is a very powerful anti-aromatase, estrogen isn't the enemy, it's just having high estrogen is a negative, inhibiting the aromatase enzyme from converting testosterone from converting to estrogen allows for the DHEA to convert into testosterone smoothly without a spike in estrogen as your original estrogen will just be replaced.

View attachment 258661
The usage of Delta-sleep-inducing-peptide to increase natural testosterone:
my recent findings suggest that the usage of the delta-sleep inducing peptide (DSIP) can greatly benefit steroid users who are trying to regain their LH production.
DSIP increases the amount of gonadotropin that is being secreted at night time, gonadotropin signals the pituitary gland to produce LH, that LH than signals the Leydig cells to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. More gonadotropin signaling = more luteinizing hormone signaling meaning more testosterone being made. DSIP also happens to block corticotropin from releasing cortisol, meaning cortisol cannot antagonize testosterone, leaving you with more testosterone to circulate the bloodstream. DSIP also blocks the release of somatostatin (growth hormone inhibiting hormone), somatostatins role is to lower growth hormone if it raises to high, so by blocking the release of this hormone we are preventing our blood serum level of GH dropping.

Delta-sleep inducing peptide is a must for those looking to increase testosterone without the usage of AAS or those who are using peptides and/or Recombinant GH, as it has potent somatostatin inhibiting properties.
check out my thread on DSIP

The usage of HCG
human chorionic gonadotropin is an LH mimic that can be injected subcutaneously, it acts the exact same way that LH does in that it signals the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, HCG will keep your balls from shrinking if you're running testosterone on an AAS cycle. It can increase testosterone but it has a tendency to also increase estrogen, in combination with testosterone it can induce dimorphism greatly, whilst maintaining testicular functions and fertility, it can also be implemented to make your PCT easier.

The usage of exogenous testosterone:
the usage of exogenous testosterone can greatly induce sexual dimorphism, increase bone density, anabolism, protein synthesis, and nitrogen retention. Whilst also saturated the androgen receptors. There are obvious downsides to the usage, but if done effectively there shouldn't be any issues. For teenagers willing to run testosterone, (I don't condone the usage) I'd suggest using testosterone base (no ester attached) dissolved into DMSO applied to the skin, I'd also suggest that you take the best measure to run a safe and sought out PCT.

The usage of exogenous dihydrotestosterone (androstanolone)
dihydrotestosterone can be very beneficial for those who are in the midst of puberty, at the correct dosages it isn't very suppressive and if minimal suppression occurs, then you can easily bounce back. Androstanolone is a synthetic DHT that is bioidentical to DHT. The usage of dihydrotestosterone will have an intense masculinizing effect, if you're in puberty it may affect the size of your penis and frame.

You can make a transdermal concoction with DMSO and androstanolone, with a high absorption rate. Androstanolone is an extremely androgenic steroid hormone, it has highly anti-estrogenic properties so be cautious with the dosages if you don't want to crash your E2 levels.
check out my thread on dihydrotestosterone

conclusion
a combination of both high dosages of either recombinant growth hormone or peptides alongside the optimization or exogenous usage of androgens is synergistic when it comes to craniofacial forward growth, sexual dimorphism and vertical growth.

here's my current stack for perspective.


this took like 3 days to make because I'm a lazy cunt, anyways hoped you gained something from it.

View attachment 258787

hoping that'll answer some questions for you guys.
@JustTrynaGrow @Slyfex8 @draco @Don't Forget to mew @Tom2004 @Crazzen8 @ht-normie-ascending @Dr Shekelberg @forwardgrowth @maxmendietta @PubertyMaxxer @apollothegun @KKK

I think im in love
I'm hoping someone actually reads this shit, somebody needs to continue my legacy.

i've learnt everything that there is to learn, i'm injecting HGH and taking dht, I'm ascending so fucking hard this year boyo
I will continue your legacy
 
Mesopotanian

Mesopotanian

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Good job OP! Thanks for the thread
 
ht-normie-ascending

ht-normie-ascending

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JustTrynaGrow

JustTrynaGrow

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jfl at this not getting pinned yet for some reason pubertymaxxers thread was
 
K

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Source for igf
Preface:
I've had a lot of questions in my pm's recently regarding growth hormone, IGF-1, and androgens.
specifically, people asking me for sources and stacks, how they work, etc, I'm hoping this guide will be able to answer as many of your questions as possible.

Disclaimer:
this thread is going to be very long, I'm going, to begin with explaining each of these chemicals, their mechanisms, and functions whilst also citing studies,
if you're wanting to learn how to apply these chemicals to your protocol than skip down to where I begin talking about methods.

Introduction:

Okay, so this in this thread I'm going to do my best at explaining how growth factors and androgens
affect facial development, induce sexual dimorphism and vertical growth, I'm going to begin
explaining the biological mechanisms of these hormones and then how you can apply them
cost-effectively.


HGH:
Somatropin, commonly referred to as HGH or GH is a 191 amino acid chain that is produced by the pituitary gland,
this peptide stimulates growth, cell reproduction, and cell regeneration in humans and other animals. It is thus important in human development.
GH also stimulates the production of IGF-1 and increases the concentration of glucose and free fatty acids. It belongs to a family of hormones known as the growth hormone family. This also includes prolactin (PRL) and placental lactogen. Despite the obvious differences in function, these hormones share a very similar structure. Likewise, GH and PRL are the only two non-tropic hormones synthesized and released from the anterior pituitary gland. (So yes if you're taking cabergoline you will inhibit growth hormone as they are from the same family).

Growth hormone itself isn't actually what induces growth, it's the metabolites of somatropin that induce cell proliferation, hyperplasia, and hypertrophy.
this class of growth factors is called insulin-like growth factors, they are molecularly structured similar to that of insulin, somatropin is needed for the creation of IGF's within the liver. IGF-2 is the primary growth factor responsible for fetal development, whereas IGF-1 is the primary growth factor responsible for inducing growth within adolescent children. (more on insulin-like growth factors later).

somatropin is needed for the development of our bodies, the reason us looksmaxxers are obsessed with it is because of dimorphic growth-related effects
that are induced by the insulin-like growth factor family of hormones.

somatropin's effect on craniofacial development within children.




Yes, these children did have GHDD (growth hormone deficiency disorder), but this doesn't disprove that the usage of exogenous somatropin
can induce craniofacial growth. These children would have been administrated growth hormone dosages that would have aligned with normal children's endogenous production. Our goal with growth hormone is to increase the endogenous production of IGF-1 way above super physiological levels in order to affect our craniofacial growth. Keep in mind, in this study the children were dosed 0.5IU daily, that's around 15-fold less than what I suggest you should dose daily, and these children still reap the positive craniofacial benefits.

The abstract of a study based on how the GH/IGF-1 axis influences bone formation, growth, and remodeling.


somatropin's effect on hard tissue, bone formation, and osteoclasts.



somatropin effects on bone formation through osteoblasts.


The GH/IGF-1 axis and it's interaction with androgens when it comes to bone formation.




Insulin-like growth factors, specifically somatomedin-C (IGF-1):

IGF-1 is produced all the way throughout life. The highest rates of IGF-1 production occur during the pubertal growth spurt. The lowest levels occur in infancy and old age. This is why children grow rapidly during puberty, somatropin is at an all-time high, meaning more conversion to IGF-1, typically in healthy children, the baseline IGF-1 scoring is between 250-500ng/dl, although higher IGF-1 scoring is possible with exogenous intervention.

IGF-1 is a primary mediator of the effects of somatropin (GH), growth hormone is released into the bloodstream, and then stimulates the liver to produce insulin-like growth factors, we are specifically focusing on IGF-1. These IGF's then stimulate systemic body growth and has growth-promoting effects on almost every cell in the body, especially skeletal muscle, cartilage, bone, liver, etc... In addition to the insulin-like effects, IGF-1 can also regulate cellular DNA synthesis. IGF-1 is our friend, we want our levels to be sky-high during puberty to reap all of the dimorphic growth and surpass our genetic potential, there are some road blockages though, along with the insulin-like growth factor family comes the IGFBP's (insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) yeah it's a mouth full jfl. These proteins bind to IGF-1 and inhibit it from attaching to the IGF-1R, basically, it renders our IGF-1 useless within the body. These proteins, unfortunately, have a high affinity to bind to IGF's, there are counter measurements to these IGFBP's though, stay tuned.

Protein intake increases IGF-1 levels in humans, independent of total calorie consumption. Factors that are known to cause variation in the levels of growth hormone (GH) and IGF-1 in the circulation include insulin levels, genetic make-up, the time of day, age, sex, exercise status, stress levels, nutrition level and body mass index, disease state, ethnicity, and estrogen status.

I'm not going to be citing studies for IGF-1, as GH and IGF-1 fall in the same category, the GH/IGF-1 axis is what influences growth.

Androgens, androgenic metabolites, and pro-hormones:
despite the common knowledge surrounding testosterone there seems to be less appreciation when it comes to other androgens. Androgens are synthesized from cholesterol and are produced primarily in the gonads (testicles and ovaries) and also in the adrenal glands to a small extent. The testicles produce a much higher quantity than the ovaries in females. Dimorphic growth is heavily dependent on androgens, specifically testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), I'm going to be underling each androgen, and their biological mechanisms.

View attachment 258656
Testosterone:
testosterone is the primary male sex hormone that is responsible for differentiating a male fetus from a female fetus, In male humans, testosterone plays a key role in the development of reproductive tissues such as testes and prostate, as well as promoting sexual dimorphisms such as increased muscle mass, bone mass and the growth of body hair. The pituitary gland located within the brain produces a signaling chemical called luteinizing hormone (LH), LH signals the Leydig cells within the testes to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. Production of luteinizing hormone spikes during puberty, sending multiple signals to the Leydig cells to produce more testosterone, in turn, promoting masculinization and dimorphism to occur.

the effect of low dose testosterone on the craniofacial development in children with delayed puberty.


Keep in mind, these children didn't have zero testosterone, they were just experiencing delayed puberty, low dose testosterone was enough to kickstart their craniofacial development.

View attachment 258654
Dihydrotestosterone:
DHT is biologically important for sexual differentiation of the male genitalia during embryogenesis, maturation of the penis and scrotum at puberty, growth of facial, body and pubic hair, and development and maintenance of the prostate gland and seminal vesicles. It is produced from testosterone by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) in select tissues and is the primary androgen in the genitals, prostate gland, seminal vesicles, skin, and hair follicles. Dihydrotestosterone can have up to 5x the potency of testosterone when it comes to inducing androgenic dimorphism, that isn't to say that testosterone isn't important though.

View attachment 258653
Androsterone:
Androsterone is an androgenic steroid derived via the activity of the enzyme 5-AR and is a downstream metabolite of the more potent androgen DHT. Like all 5-AR derived androgens, androsterone displays anti-estrogenic and anti-glucocorticoid activity and in addition, serves as a pro-hormone for DHT and other potent androgens. In addition, androsterone is a neurosteroid with potent GABA agonist activity and is known to function as a pheromone in many animal species including humans. It has been shown to possess anti-depressant and anti-proliferative effects. Perhaps most importantly, it has been found to act like as a potent thyroid mimetic and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans.

androsterone and its effect on the masculinization of male fetuses.





View attachment 258780
dehydroepiandrosterone
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), also known as androstenolone, is an endogenous steroid hormone. It is one of the most abundant circulating steroids in humans, in whom it is produced in the adrenal glands, the gonads, and the brain. It functions as a metabolic intermediate in the biosynthesis of the androgen and estrogen sex steroids both in the gonads and in various other tissues. On its own, it's a very weak androgen, but it potently converts to testosterone within certain tissue, it is more abundant within females than males as it also converts to estrogen.

How to apply these hormones to your protocol:

let's begin with the growth hormone/igf1 aspect to our protocol, our main goal is to induce craniofacial growth (specifically maxillary and mandibular growth), vertical growth, and dimorphism, this can be achieved via a multitude of method, here we go.

How to increase IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological natural range
through the usage of exogenous GH and PEPTIDES:


Method 1:
Recombinant growth hormone:

increasing our IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological range is simple, although I disagree with some of
@Extra Chromosome's opinions on heightmaxxing, I'm going to do my best to express my opinion as I have experience and knowledge within the field of GH and Peptides.

To begin with, I personally think the usage of recombinant growth hormone (synthetic bioidentical somatropin) is the best and most practical way to increase IGF-1 and induce growth, that's not to say that peptides don't have their place, but they aren't as effective as HGH (I'll go into more detail later). Recombinant growth hormone is expensive, very expensive, but if you source it correctly you can bypass the majority of the cost issues.

I'd suggest dosing HGH at around 5IU-8IU's daily. This will skyrocket your IGF-1, even more so if you're a teenager as the conversion rate from somatropin to IGF-1 is higher, in most growing teenagers this amount of GH will put you into the 700-900ng/dl range for IGF-1 scoring, at this level cell proliferation, hyperplasia and osteoblast/osteoclast activity will increase dramatically. In other words, you'll grow, vertically and horizontally. If your soul usage of HGH is for height gains than either exemestane, letrozole or Arimidex will suffice for aromatase inhibition.

To sum method 1 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor of your choice.

Method 2:
HGH combined with IGF-1 LR3 and IGF-1 DES.

the combination of both exogenous GH and exogenous IGF-1 is amazing. As I've mentioned above alongside insulin-like growth factors comes IGFBP's (Insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) IGFPB's have a high affinity to bind onto IGF-1 and IGF-2 within the bloodstream rendering them useless and unable to attach to the IGF-1R and IGF-2R, meaning a small portion of the HGH that we inject into ourselves is going to waste as these proteins are rendering the IGF-1 unable to function, there is a way around this.

the polypeptides IGF-LR3 and IGF-DES have a low affinity to bind to the IGFBP's, meaning they are up to 3x more potent than regular endogenous IGF-1. IGF-1LR3 also happens to have a half-life of up to 30 hours. IGF-DES is even more potent than LR3, the only downside is that it has a 30-minute half-life before it is metabolized by the body, DES also happens to be more localized, so we are going to opt for LR3 in this method as it is more systemic than DES. The combination of HGH and exogenous IGF-1 will guarantee growth. (if your plates are open of course).

To sum method 2 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
IGF-1 LR3 100mcg ED
(optional) IGF-1 DES 50mcg ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor

Method 3
Peptide protocol.

peptides can be great for increasing serum levels of growth hormone and inevitably increasing IGF-1 scoring within the blood, the reason why I prefer synthetic GH is that the pituitary gland can only produce so much GH, meaning there is a limit to the number of signals it can take to produce a certain amount of somatropin. For example, you could inject more exogenous GH than you could make endogenous GH with the help of peptides, I hope that makes sense. Peptides can still boost your IGF-1 scoring beyond the natural range, some peptides even stimulate the Pi3k pathways, which is a bonus.

peptides are split up into 2 categories, GHRH's and GHRP's, our bodies make growth hormone-releasing hormone to signal the somatroph cells to produce somatropin within the pituitary gland, GHRH peptides basically tell the pituitary to release GH, growth hormone-releasing peptides basically amplify the production of growth hormone that is being secreted, stacking both a GHRH and a GHRP is necessary for increasing IGF-1 as they synergize well.

here's the peptide protocol that I recommend, whilst on this stack my IGF-1 came back at over 800ng/dl, in that time period I grew an inch and a half in height within 2 and a half months.



switching back and forth from hexarelin and GHRP-2 is necessary as desensitization will occur whilst using hexarelin at any dosage for longer than 14 days. Having 14 days off and 7 days on allows your body to sensitize to the peptide again. I do not recommend the usage of CJC DAC as it has been proven to cause damage to the pituitary gland with chronic usage.

Okay, that sums up the GH/IGF-1 section, overall I'd say if you're on a budget than peptides is the route you should take, if you have more money to spend than go for HGH if you're really fucking determined than take the HGH/IGF-1LR3 route.

The good thing about working with somatropin and peptides is that exogenous usage won't cause a negative feedback loop to occur, meaning if you discontinue the usage of growth hormone you won't feel like shit as you would with testosterone (unless you do a correct PCT). Your endogenous somatropin will begin producing normally again.

How to increase endogenous androgen activity without causing suppression
or shutdown from occurring:

working with androgens can be tricky and dangerous, you can take two routes with androgens, you can either take metabolites and non-suppressive prohormones or you can take androgens like testosterone and cause a shutdown.

the usage of androgens such as dehydroepiandrosterone and androsterone along with progesterone can be of great benefit to those who are looking
to masculinize themselves without using testosterone. dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is one of the most abundant steroid hormones within the human body, it is produced by the adrenals and can be converted to either testosterone or estrogen. The supplementation of exogenous DHEA alone can lead to both an increase in estrogen and testosterone, combining DHEA with androsterone is a good idea as androsterone is a very powerful anti-aromatase, estrogen isn't the enemy, it's just having high estrogen is a negative, inhibiting the aromatase enzyme from converting testosterone from converting to estrogen allows for the DHEA to convert into testosterone smoothly without a spike in estrogen as your original estrogen will just be replaced.

View attachment 258661
The usage of Delta-sleep-inducing-peptide to increase natural testosterone:
my recent findings suggest that the usage of the delta-sleep inducing peptide (DSIP) can greatly benefit steroid users who are trying to regain their LH production.
DSIP increases the amount of gonadotropin that is being secreted at night time, gonadotropin signals the pituitary gland to produce LH, that LH than signals the Leydig cells to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. More gonadotropin signaling = more luteinizing hormone signaling meaning more testosterone being made. DSIP also happens to block corticotropin from releasing cortisol, meaning cortisol cannot antagonize testosterone, leaving you with more testosterone to circulate the bloodstream. DSIP also blocks the release of somatostatin (growth hormone inhibiting hormone), somatostatins role is to lower growth hormone if it raises to high, so by blocking the release of this hormone we are preventing our blood serum level of GH dropping.

Delta-sleep inducing peptide is a must for those looking to increase testosterone without the usage of AAS or those who are using peptides and/or Recombinant GH, as it has potent somatostatin inhibiting properties.
check out my thread on DSIP

The usage of HCG
human chorionic gonadotropin is an LH mimic that can be injected subcutaneously, it acts the exact same way that LH does in that it signals the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, HCG will keep your balls from shrinking if you're running testosterone on an AAS cycle. It can increase testosterone but it has a tendency to also increase estrogen, in combination with testosterone it can induce dimorphism greatly, whilst maintaining testicular functions and fertility, it can also be implemented to make your PCT easier.

The usage of exogenous testosterone:
the usage of exogenous testosterone can greatly induce sexual dimorphism, increase bone density, anabolism, protein synthesis, and nitrogen retention. Whilst also saturated the androgen receptors. There are obvious downsides to the usage, but if done effectively there shouldn't be any issues. For teenagers willing to run testosterone, (I don't condone the usage) I'd suggest using testosterone base (no ester attached) dissolved into DMSO applied to the skin, I'd also suggest that you take the best measure to run a safe and sought out PCT.

The usage of exogenous dihydrotestosterone (androstanolone)
dihydrotestosterone can be very beneficial for those who are in the midst of puberty, at the correct dosages it isn't very suppressive and if minimal suppression occurs, then you can easily bounce back. Androstanolone is a synthetic DHT that is bioidentical to DHT. The usage of dihydrotestosterone will have an intense masculinizing effect, if you're in puberty it may affect the size of your penis and frame.

You can make a transdermal concoction with DMSO and androstanolone, with a high absorption rate. Androstanolone is an extremely androgenic steroid hormone, it has highly anti-estrogenic properties so be cautious with the dosages if you don't want to crash your E2 levels.
check out my thread on dihydrotestosterone

conclusion
a combination of both high dosages of either recombinant growth hormone or peptides alongside the optimization or exogenous usage of androgens is synergistic when it comes to craniofacial forward growth, sexual dimorphism and vertical growth.

here's my current stack for perspective.


this took like 3 days to make because I'm a lazy cunt, anyways hoped you gained something from it.

View attachment 258787

hoping that'll answer some questions for you guys.
@JustTrynaGrow @Slyfex8 @draco @Don't Forget to mew @Tom2004 @Crazzen8 @ht-normie-ascending @Dr Shekelberg @forwardgrowth @maxmendietta @PubertyMaxxer @apollothegun @KKK

Source for HGH and igf-1.

Also is cjc dac, huperzine a and mk-677(@Extra Chromosome's ) more/less effective than your stack. If so by how much.
 
Tom2004

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Pin thread RN
 
Pendejo

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To sum method 2 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
IGF-1 LR3 100mcg ED
(optional) IGF-1 DES 50mcg ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor
Why use both HGH and IGF-1 LR3?

How much would that method cost? Do you have sources for all this? Also, how would you dosage it?

Do you think this stack could increase my ramus size significantly if i am 18 years old?
 
Chadelite

Chadelite

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Preface:
I've had a lot of questions in my pm's recently regarding growth hormone, IGF-1, and androgens.
specifically, people asking me for sources and stacks, how they work, etc, I'm hoping this guide will be able to answer as many of your questions as possible.

Disclaimer:
this thread is going to be very long, I'm going, to begin with explaining each of these chemicals, their mechanisms, and functions whilst also citing studies,
if you're wanting to learn how to apply these chemicals to your protocol than skip down to where I begin talking about methods.

Introduction:

Okay, so this in this thread I'm going to do my best at explaining how growth factors and androgens
affect facial development, induce sexual dimorphism and vertical growth, I'm going to begin
explaining the biological mechanisms of these hormones and then how you can apply them
cost-effectively.


HGH:
Somatropin, commonly referred to as HGH or GH is a 191 amino acid chain that is produced by the pituitary gland,
this peptide stimulates growth, cell reproduction, and cell regeneration in humans and other animals. It is thus important in human development.
GH also stimulates the production of IGF-1 and increases the concentration of glucose and free fatty acids. It belongs to a family of hormones known as the growth hormone family. This also includes prolactin (PRL) and placental lactogen. Despite the obvious differences in function, these hormones share a very similar structure. Likewise, GH and PRL are the only two non-tropic hormones synthesized and released from the anterior pituitary gland. (So yes if you're taking cabergoline you will inhibit growth hormone as they are from the same family).

Growth hormone itself isn't actually what induces growth, it's the metabolites of somatropin that induce cell proliferation, hyperplasia, and hypertrophy.
this class of growth factors is called insulin-like growth factors, they are molecularly structured similar to that of insulin, somatropin is needed for the creation of IGF's within the liver. IGF-2 is the primary growth factor responsible for fetal development, whereas IGF-1 is the primary growth factor responsible for inducing growth within adolescent children. (more on insulin-like growth factors later).

somatropin is needed for the development of our bodies, the reason us looksmaxxers are obsessed with it is because of dimorphic growth-related effects
that are induced by the insulin-like growth factor family of hormones.

somatropin's effect on craniofacial development within children.




Yes, these children did have GHDD (growth hormone deficiency disorder), but this doesn't disprove that the usage of exogenous somatropin
can induce craniofacial growth. These children would have been administrated growth hormone dosages that would have aligned with normal children's endogenous production. Our goal with growth hormone is to increase the endogenous production of IGF-1 way above super physiological levels in order to affect our craniofacial growth. Keep in mind, in this study the children were dosed 0.5IU daily, that's around 15-fold less than what I suggest you should dose daily, and these children still reap the positive craniofacial benefits.

The abstract of a study based on how the GH/IGF-1 axis influences bone formation, growth, and remodeling.


somatropin's effect on hard tissue, bone formation, and osteoclasts.



somatropin effects on bone formation through osteoblasts.


The GH/IGF-1 axis and it's interaction with androgens when it comes to bone formation.




Insulin-like growth factors, specifically somatomedin-C (IGF-1):

IGF-1 is produced all the way throughout life. The highest rates of IGF-1 production occur during the pubertal growth spurt. The lowest levels occur in infancy and old age. This is why children grow rapidly during puberty, somatropin is at an all-time high, meaning more conversion to IGF-1, typically in healthy children, the baseline IGF-1 scoring is between 250-500ng/dl, although higher IGF-1 scoring is possible with exogenous intervention.

IGF-1 is a primary mediator of the effects of somatropin (GH), growth hormone is released into the bloodstream, and then stimulates the liver to produce insulin-like growth factors, we are specifically focusing on IGF-1. These IGF's then stimulate systemic body growth and has growth-promoting effects on almost every cell in the body, especially skeletal muscle, cartilage, bone, liver, etc... In addition to the insulin-like effects, IGF-1 can also regulate cellular DNA synthesis. IGF-1 is our friend, we want our levels to be sky-high during puberty to reap all of the dimorphic growth and surpass our genetic potential, there are some road blockages though, along with the insulin-like growth factor family comes the IGFBP's (insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) yeah it's a mouth full jfl. These proteins bind to IGF-1 and inhibit it from attaching to the IGF-1R, basically, it renders our IGF-1 useless within the body. These proteins, unfortunately, have a high affinity to bind to IGF's, there are counter measurements to these IGFBP's though, stay tuned.

Protein intake increases IGF-1 levels in humans, independent of total calorie consumption. Factors that are known to cause variation in the levels of growth hormone (GH) and IGF-1 in the circulation include insulin levels, genetic make-up, the time of day, age, sex, exercise status, stress levels, nutrition level and body mass index, disease state, ethnicity, and estrogen status.

I'm not going to be citing studies for IGF-1, as GH and IGF-1 fall in the same category, the GH/IGF-1 axis is what influences growth.

Androgens, androgenic metabolites, and pro-hormones:
despite the common knowledge surrounding testosterone there seems to be less appreciation when it comes to other androgens. Androgens are synthesized from cholesterol and are produced primarily in the gonads (testicles and ovaries) and also in the adrenal glands to a small extent. The testicles produce a much higher quantity than the ovaries in females. Dimorphic growth is heavily dependent on androgens, specifically testosterone, dihydrotestosterone (DHT), and dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), I'm going to be underling each androgen, and their biological mechanisms.

View attachment 258656
Testosterone:
testosterone is the primary male sex hormone that is responsible for differentiating a male fetus from a female fetus, In male humans, testosterone plays a key role in the development of reproductive tissues such as testes and prostate, as well as promoting sexual dimorphisms such as increased muscle mass, bone mass and the growth of body hair. The pituitary gland located within the brain produces a signaling chemical called luteinizing hormone (LH), LH signals the Leydig cells within the testes to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. Production of luteinizing hormone spikes during puberty, sending multiple signals to the Leydig cells to produce more testosterone, in turn, promoting masculinization and dimorphism to occur.

the effect of low dose testosterone on the craniofacial development in children with delayed puberty.


Keep in mind, these children didn't have zero testosterone, they were just experiencing delayed puberty, low dose testosterone was enough to kickstart their craniofacial development.

View attachment 258654
Dihydrotestosterone:
DHT is biologically important for sexual differentiation of the male genitalia during embryogenesis, maturation of the penis and scrotum at puberty, growth of facial, body and pubic hair, and development and maintenance of the prostate gland and seminal vesicles. It is produced from testosterone by an enzyme called 5-alpha-reductase (5AR) in select tissues and is the primary androgen in the genitals, prostate gland, seminal vesicles, skin, and hair follicles. Dihydrotestosterone can have up to 5x the potency of testosterone when it comes to inducing androgenic dimorphism, that isn't to say that testosterone isn't important though.

View attachment 258653
Androsterone:
Androsterone is an androgenic steroid derived via the activity of the enzyme 5-AR and is a downstream metabolite of the more potent androgen DHT. Like all 5-AR derived androgens, androsterone displays anti-estrogenic and anti-glucocorticoid activity and in addition, serves as a pro-hormone for DHT and other potent androgens. In addition, androsterone is a neurosteroid with potent GABA agonist activity and is known to function as a pheromone in many animal species including humans. It has been shown to possess anti-depressant and anti-proliferative effects. Perhaps most importantly, it has been found to act like as a potent thyroid mimetic and as such to increase basal temperature, oxygen consumption and lower lipid levels in humans.

androsterone and its effect on the masculinization of male fetuses.





View attachment 258780
dehydroepiandrosterone
Dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA), also known as androstenolone, is an endogenous steroid hormone. It is one of the most abundant circulating steroids in humans, in whom it is produced in the adrenal glands, the gonads, and the brain. It functions as a metabolic intermediate in the biosynthesis of the androgen and estrogen sex steroids both in the gonads and in various other tissues. On its own, it's a very weak androgen, but it potently converts to testosterone within certain tissue, it is more abundant within females than males as it also converts to estrogen.

How to apply these hormones to your protocol:

let's begin with the growth hormone/igf1 aspect to our protocol, our main goal is to induce craniofacial growth (specifically maxillary and mandibular growth), vertical growth, and dimorphism, this can be achieved via a multitude of method, here we go.

How to increase IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological natural range
through the usage of exogenous GH and PEPTIDES:


Method 1:
Recombinant growth hormone:

increasing our IGF-1 levels beyond the super physiological range is simple, although I disagree with some of
@Extra Chromosome's opinions on heightmaxxing, I'm going to do my best to express my opinion as I have experience and knowledge within the field of GH and Peptides.

To begin with, I personally think the usage of recombinant growth hormone (synthetic bioidentical somatropin) is the best and most practical way to increase IGF-1 and induce growth, that's not to say that peptides don't have their place, but they aren't as effective as HGH (I'll go into more detail later). Recombinant growth hormone is expensive, very expensive, but if you source it correctly you can bypass the majority of the cost issues.

I'd suggest dosing HGH at around 5IU-8IU's daily. This will skyrocket your IGF-1, even more so if you're a teenager as the conversion rate from somatropin to IGF-1 is higher, in most growing teenagers this amount of GH will put you into the 700-900ng/dl range for IGF-1 scoring, at this level cell proliferation, hyperplasia and osteoblast/osteoclast activity will increase dramatically. In other words, you'll grow, vertically and horizontally. If your soul usage of HGH is for height gains than either exemestane, letrozole or Arimidex will suffice for aromatase inhibition.

To sum method 1 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor of your choice.

Method 2:
HGH combined with IGF-1 LR3 and IGF-1 DES.

the combination of both exogenous GH and exogenous IGF-1 is amazing. As I've mentioned above alongside insulin-like growth factors comes IGFBP's (Insulin-like growth factor binding proteins) IGFPB's have a high affinity to bind onto IGF-1 and IGF-2 within the bloodstream rendering them useless and unable to attach to the IGF-1R and IGF-2R, meaning a small portion of the HGH that we inject into ourselves is going to waste as these proteins are rendering the IGF-1 unable to function, there is a way around this.

the polypeptides IGF-LR3 and IGF-DES have a low affinity to bind to the IGFBP's, meaning they are up to 3x more potent than regular endogenous IGF-1. IGF-1LR3 also happens to have a half-life of up to 30 hours. IGF-DES is even more potent than LR3, the only downside is that it has a 30-minute half-life before it is metabolized by the body, DES also happens to be more localized, so we are going to opt for LR3 in this method as it is more systemic than DES. The combination of HGH and exogenous IGF-1 will guarantee growth. (if your plates are open of course).

To sum method 2 up:
5-8iu's of HGH ED
IGF-1 LR3 100mcg ED
(optional) IGF-1 DES 50mcg ED
(optional) Aromatase inhibitor

Method 3
Peptide protocol.

peptides can be great for increasing serum levels of growth hormone and inevitably increasing IGF-1 scoring within the blood, the reason why I prefer synthetic GH is that the pituitary gland can only produce so much GH, meaning there is a limit to the number of signals it can take to produce a certain amount of somatropin. For example, you could inject more exogenous GH than you could make endogenous GH with the help of peptides, I hope that makes sense. Peptides can still boost your IGF-1 scoring beyond the natural range, some peptides even stimulate the Pi3k pathways, which is a bonus.

peptides are split up into 2 categories, GHRH's and GHRP's, our bodies make growth hormone-releasing hormone to signal the somatroph cells to produce somatropin within the pituitary gland, GHRH peptides basically tell the pituitary to release GH, growth hormone-releasing peptides basically amplify the production of growth hormone that is being secreted, stacking both a GHRH and a GHRP is necessary for increasing IGF-1 as they synergize well.

here's the peptide protocol that I recommend, whilst on this stack my IGF-1 came back at over 800ng/dl, in that time period I grew an inch and a half in height within 2 and a half months.



switching back and forth from hexarelin and GHRP-2 is necessary as desensitization will occur whilst using hexarelin at any dosage for longer than 14 days. Having 14 days off and 7 days on allows your body to sensitize to the peptide again. I do not recommend the usage of CJC DAC as it has been proven to cause damage to the pituitary gland with chronic usage.

Okay, that sums up the GH/IGF-1 section, overall I'd say if you're on a budget than peptides is the route you should take, if you have more money to spend than go for HGH if you're really fucking determined than take the HGH/IGF-1LR3 route.

The good thing about working with somatropin and peptides is that exogenous usage won't cause a negative feedback loop to occur, meaning if you discontinue the usage of growth hormone you won't feel like shit as you would with testosterone (unless you do a correct PCT). Your endogenous somatropin will begin producing normally again.

How to increase endogenous androgen activity without causing suppression
or shutdown from occurring:

working with androgens can be tricky and dangerous, you can take two routes with androgens, you can either take metabolites and non-suppressive prohormones or you can take androgens like testosterone and cause a shutdown.

the usage of androgens such as dehydroepiandrosterone and androsterone along with progesterone can be of great benefit to those who are looking
to masculinize themselves without using testosterone. dehydroepiandrosterone (DHEA) is one of the most abundant steroid hormones within the human body, it is produced by the adrenals and can be converted to either testosterone or estrogen. The supplementation of exogenous DHEA alone can lead to both an increase in estrogen and testosterone, combining DHEA with androsterone is a good idea as androsterone is a very powerful anti-aromatase, estrogen isn't the enemy, it's just having high estrogen is a negative, inhibiting the aromatase enzyme from converting testosterone from converting to estrogen allows for the DHEA to convert into testosterone smoothly without a spike in estrogen as your original estrogen will just be replaced.

View attachment 258661
The usage of Delta-sleep-inducing-peptide to increase natural testosterone:
my recent findings suggest that the usage of the delta-sleep inducing peptide (DSIP) can greatly benefit steroid users who are trying to regain their LH production.
DSIP increases the amount of gonadotropin that is being secreted at night time, gonadotropin signals the pituitary gland to produce LH, that LH than signals the Leydig cells to synthesize testosterone from cholesterol. More gonadotropin signaling = more luteinizing hormone signaling meaning more testosterone being made. DSIP also happens to block corticotropin from releasing cortisol, meaning cortisol cannot antagonize testosterone, leaving you with more testosterone to circulate the bloodstream. DSIP also blocks the release of somatostatin (growth hormone inhibiting hormone), somatostatins role is to lower growth hormone if it raises to high, so by blocking the release of this hormone we are preventing our blood serum level of GH dropping.

Delta-sleep inducing peptide is a must for those looking to increase testosterone without the usage of AAS or those who are using peptides and/or Recombinant GH, as it has potent somatostatin inhibiting properties.
check out my thread on DSIP

The usage of HCG
human chorionic gonadotropin is an LH mimic that can be injected subcutaneously, it acts the exact same way that LH does in that it signals the Leydig cells to produce testosterone, HCG will keep your balls from shrinking if you're running testosterone on an AAS cycle. It can increase testosterone but it has a tendency to also increase estrogen, in combination with testosterone it can induce dimorphism greatly, whilst maintaining testicular functions and fertility, it can also be implemented to make your PCT easier.

The usage of exogenous testosterone:
the usage of exogenous testosterone can greatly induce sexual dimorphism, increase bone density, anabolism, protein synthesis, and nitrogen retention. Whilst also saturated the androgen receptors. There are obvious downsides to the usage, but if done effectively there shouldn't be any issues. For teenagers willing to run testosterone, (I don't condone the usage) I'd suggest using testosterone base (no ester attached) dissolved into DMSO applied to the skin, I'd also suggest that you take the best measure to run a safe and sought out PCT.

The usage of exogenous dihydrotestosterone (androstanolone)
dihydrotestosterone can be very beneficial for those who are in the midst of puberty, at the correct dosages it isn't very suppressive and if minimal suppression occurs, then you can easily bounce back. Androstanolone is a synthetic DHT that is bioidentical to DHT. The usage of dihydrotestosterone will have an intense masculinizing effect, if you're in puberty it may affect the size of your penis and frame.

You can make a transdermal concoction with DMSO and androstanolone, with a high absorption rate. Androstanolone is an extremely androgenic steroid hormone, it has highly anti-estrogenic properties so be cautious with the dosages if you don't want to crash your E2 levels.
check out my thread on dihydrotestosterone

conclusion
a combination of both high dosages of either recombinant growth hormone or peptides alongside the optimization or exogenous usage of androgens is synergistic when it comes to craniofacial forward growth, sexual dimorphism and vertical growth.

here's my current stack for perspective.


this took like 3 days to make because I'm a lazy cunt, anyways hoped you gained something from it.

View attachment 258787

hoping that'll answer some questions for you guys.
@JustTrynaGrow @Slyfex8 @draco @Don't Forget to mew @Tom2004 @Crazzen8 @ht-normie-ascending @Dr Shekelberg @forwardgrowth @maxmendietta @PubertyMaxxer @apollothegun @KKK

imagine having to do all of this

when i will be 6'7 gigachad just by using niacin and facepuller
 
EvropaCel

EvropaCel

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TLDR, should I even bother with this shit if I'm 18?
 
Chadius

Chadius

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One of the best posts on this forum, sad that basically no one in that age range can afford it especially while hiding it from parents.

Here you have the result of a Steroid cycle on a 17-year-old, he admitted to test but deleted it.

@Dyorotic2 u should include it in your post as proof
 
DianabolDownie

DianabolDownie

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ILL NEVER HAVE THE MONEY DAMMI9T


A


FEWF
EWF
ERWFQERW
F
ERW
GFER

I HATE BASICALLY LIVING IN A REDNECK INFESTED VERSION OF MEXICO


good thread tho.
 
Chadius

Chadius

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ILL NEVER HAVE THE MONEY DAMMI9T


A


FEWF
EWF
ERWFQERW
F
ERW
GFER

I HATE BASICALLY LIVING IN A REDNECK INFESTED VERSION OF MEXICO


good thread tho.
Just join a cartel, fast money and easy access to roids
 
DianabolDownie

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can i switch the places of the mod-grf and ghrp-2?

so ghrp-2 every week, and the mod-grf 1-29 only on week a?

doing so for pricing reasons



also, as for the DHT, is dht gel all i need to reap the craniofacial benefits during puberty?
 
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