Whats the difference between a palate expander and MSE

[goat2x]

Some palate expanders requeries screws at the palate too, i know MSE will change your face far more than palate expanders. How do they work?

 

[Golden Glass]

Some palate expanders requeries screws at the palate too, i know MSE will change your face far more than palate expanders. How do they work?

No. Palate expanders have screws that you turn manually, which cause the appliance to expand laterally.


MSE is drilled into the palate, quite deep in fact, and then expands. Recently, cortipunctures are also made alongside installation (holes are basically punched into your palate, to loosen it even more).


If you are interested about learning more about MSE, you should just google interviews with won moon (it’s creator) about MARPE and MSE

 

[goat2x]

No. Palate expanders have screws that you turn manually, which cause the appliance to expand laterally.


MSE is drilled into the palate, quite deep in fact, and then expands. Recently, cortipunctures are also made before installation (holes are basically punched into your palate, to loosen it even more).


If you are interested about learning more about MSE, you should just google interviews with won moon (it’s creator) about MARPE and MSE

Thx i will do that

 

[Golden Glass]

Thx i will do that

Actually, based on my googling, the first results you will find are from interviews when he was just starting MARPE (a precursor to MSE) and was still just hopeful of true maxillary expansion in adults.

This is a good short summary:


You can also google studies involving MARPE or MSE

 

[puppymaxer]

Actually, based on my googling, the first results you will find are from interviews when he was just starting MARPE (a precursor to MSE) and was still just hopeful of true maxillary expansion in adults.

This is a good short summary:


You can also google studies involving MARPE or MSE

do you know how long MSE takes and how much it costs approximately?

 

[Golden Glass]

do you know how long MSE takes and how much it costs approximately?

Expansion itself is about 3 months (check out Ronald Ead’s blog he covered his MSE journey in full). And it costs a few grand (American).

 

[puppymaxer]

Expansion itself is about 3 months (check out Ronald Ead’s blog he covered his MSE journey in full). And it costs a few grand (American).

fuark, all it does is increase jaw and mouth width slightly right?

 

[Golden Glass]

fuark, all it does is increase jaw and mouth width slightly right?

No, it does more (which is why it’s so “revolutionary”)

In order of most to least change in width increase:

1. Maxilla
2. Mouth and Nose Base
3. Midface
4. Zygos
5. Orbital Sockets and IPD (very unlikely in Adult Patients)

 

[puppymaxer]

No, it does more (which is why it’s so “revolutionary”)

In order of most to least change in width increase:

1. Maxilla
2. Mouth and Nose Base
3. Midface
4. Zygos
5. Orbital Sockets and IPD (very unlikely in Adult Patients)

damn wtf, and it technically isnt even considered surgery so theres not much of a risk right?

 

[Golden Glass]

damn wtf, and it technically isnt even considered surgery so theres not much of a risk right?

Yeah. I forgot to mention the airway benefits (massive).

Here’s Ronald Ead’s midface and zygo before and after at a 3/4 profile

 

[MandibularCel]

damn wtf, and it technically isnt even considered surgery so theres not much of a risk right?

The obvious downside is cost. I've heard ~$8k USD. If doing it before/after bimax, as I would be, you're looking at $25k-$35k.

 

[Deleted member 3202]

Yeah. I forgot to mention the airway benefits (massive).

Here’s Ronald Ead’s midface and zygo before and after at a 3/4 profile
View attachment 245086
View attachment 245087

He's got a weird as fuck phenotype.

 

[MandibularCel]

He's got a weird as fuck phenotype.

Looks pretty good to me

 

[Deleted member 3202]

Looks pretty good to me

Really? I would've roped already if I looked like him tbh.

 

[GetThatBread]

No, it does more (which is why it’s so “revolutionary”)

In order of most to least change in width increase:

1. Maxilla
2. Mouth and Nose Base
3. Midface
4. Zygos
5. Orbital Sockets and IPD (very unlikely in Adult Patients)

Dr. Moon should finance you for promoting MSE so much on here lmao but the Zygos is #4? If your entire mid face widens wouldn’t the Zygos also fan out? The main reason I’m doing MSE is for sleep apnea and no more dark circles due to the widened Zygo support
one is skeletal change and the other is mainly alveolar bone change

 

[Golden Glass]

Dr. Moon should finance you for promoting MSE so much on here lmao but the Zygos is #4? If your entire mid face widens wouldn’t the Zygos also fan out? The main reason I’m doing MSE is for sleep apnea and no more dark circles due to the widened Zygo support

It is but this doesn’t mean it’s not significant.
And the zygo doesn’t really grow, what happens is it rotates outward from a pivot point:

In this scan, blue is before, and the orange circle is the pivot point

 

[GetThatBread]

It is but this doesn’t mean it’s not significant.
And the zygo doesn’t really grow, what happens is it rotates outward from a pivot point:

View attachment 245109
In this scan, blue is before, and the orange is the pivot point

So what’s the solution if you a mid face deficiency? Flat zygos are sign of that. I would assume to expand further say around 12-14mm. Ron was originally going to do 12mm but stopped at 84 turns which is 10mm.

 

[Golden Glass]

So what’s the solution if you a mid face deficiency? Flat zygos are sign of that. I would assume to expand further say around 12-14mm. Ron was originally going to do 12mm but stopped at 84 turns which is 10mm.

MSE definitely grows the midface.
And it results in wider cheekbone arches, but they “move” more laterally, you don’t end up with more bone mass in the arches, they just move more laterally.

this obviously helps lateral midface deficiency.

 

[puppymaxer]

The obvious downside is cost. I've heard ~$8k USD. If doing it before/after bimax, as I would be, you're looking at $25k-$35k.

damn that is pricy af

MSE definitely grows the midface.
And it results in wider cheekbone arches, but they “move” more laterally, you don’t end up with more bone mass in the arches, they just move more laterally.

this obviously helps lateral midface deficiency.

what are the best results youve seen in terms of mouth width from MSE

 

[Deleted member 3202]

MSE definitely grows the midface.
And it results in wider cheekbone arches, but they “move” more laterally, you don’t end up with more bone mass in the arches, they just move more laterally.

this obviously helps lateral midface deficiency.

Won't doing this fuck you up if you have a slightly narrow to average IPD?

 

[Golden Glass]

Won't doing this fuck you up if you have a slightly narrow to average IPD?

The thing is, if it increased the lateral orbital rim, it could increase PFL.

And if you have a narrow face in general, even if a wider midface and wider zygos would slightly worsen how narrow your IPD looks, the benefits of width increase across the face outweighs it imo.

The above ^only wouldn’t apply to adult faces that are already wide to begin with but still have a narrow IPD (and thus wouldn’t really need the width increase from MSE)

 

[EthnicelAscension]

MSE didn't exist when I was expanding my palate, so all I got was a palate expander
Could've had MSE and ascend even harder.

 

[Golden Glass]

damn that is pricy af


what are the best results youve seen in terms of mouth width from MSE

I haven’t tried to measure in mm, but I’ve seen noticeable mouth width increase in virtually all MSE cases I’ve seen.

And that price you saw above was MSE plus bimax, not on its own.

I have never seen an MSE estimate in the tens of thousands.

 

[GetThatBread]

No, it does more (which is why it’s so “revolutionary”)

In order of most to least change in width increase:

1. Maxilla
2. Mouth and Nose Base
3. Midface
4. Zygos
5. Orbital Sockets and IPD (very unlikely in Adult Patients)

1mm IPD change is expected at 1cm expansion. Ron had it and @forwardgrowth did also. Care to explain orbital sockets? And it’s effect with MSE?

 

[puppymaxer]

I haven’t tried to measure in mm, but I’ve seen noticeable mouth width increase in virtually all MSE cases I’ve seen.

And that price you saw above was MSE plus bimax, not on its own.

I have never seen an MSE estimate in the tens of thousands.

I previously messaged you how I look, would you say an MSE would make a noticable difference on me? I could get a part time job and save for one

 

[Golden Glass]

1mm IPD change is expected at 1cm expansion. Ron had it and @forwardgrowth did also. Care to explain orbital sockets? And it’s effect with MSE?

The space between Your eye sockets is what affects your IPD, and how wide they are affects your PFL (horizontal length of your eyes)

I previously messaged you how I look, would you say an MSE would make a noticable difference on me? I could get a part time job and save for one

Yes you would benefit from it.

 

[Deleted member 3202]

The thing is, if it increased the lateral orbital rim, it could increase PFL.

And if you have a narrow face in general, even if a wider midface and wider zygos would slightly worsen how narrow your IPD looks, the benefits of width increase across the face outweighs it imo.

The above ^only wouldn’t apply to adult faces that are already wide to begin with but still have a narrow IPD (and thus wouldn’t really need the width increase from MSE)

Is a 14cm wide zygos to zygos too wide to consider MSE?

 

[Golden Glass]

Is a 14cm wide zygos to zygos too wide to consider MSE?

Hmm in my personal opinion, no it’s not too wide to consider MSE, since MSE will increase zygos by about 1-4mm total. And if you are really worried, you could just track your progress, and since it’s such a slow process, you can stop expanding if you got to a point where you say “okay my zygos will be too wide if I continue”

 

[Deleted member 3202]

Hmm in my personal opinion, no it’s not too wide to consider MSE, since MSE will increase zygos by about 1-4mm total. And if you are really worried, you could just track your progress, and since it’s such a slow process, you can stop expanding if you got to a point where you say “okay my zygos will be too wide if I continue”

My IPD is also 6.1cms wide, if that helps.

 

[MaxxedOut]

If you were to do MSE for maxilla/midface what would the "MSE" equivalent for the mandible? I.E something just as modestly invasive that isn't full on surgery?

 

[Golden Glass]

If you were to do MSE for maxilla/midface what would the "MSE" equivalent for the mandible? I.E something just as modestly invasive that isn't full on surgery?

MSDO.
Mandibular Sympheseal Distraction Osteogenesis.

Not exactly the same (because you can’t install an expander onto the bottom of your lower palate—there’s no bone there, only soft tissue). But its cutting your chin in half(inside your mouth in your gums), and placing a distractor there that expands your chin.

It’s certainly more invasive than MSE, it’s honestly more analogous to SARPE (surgically assisted rapid palatal expansion). But there can never really be an exact “MSE” for the mandible (due to the mandible being a V shape that doesn’t have a true floor made of bone for you to just screw on an expander) so it’s the closest thing there is to being one

 

[MaxxedOut]

MSDO.
Mandibular Sympheseal Distraction Osteogenesis.

Not exactly the same (because you can’t install an expander onto the bottom of your lower palate—there’s no bone there, only soft tissue). But its cutting your chin in half(inside your mouth in your gums), and placing a distractor there that expands your chin.

It’s certainly more invasive than MSE, it’s honestly more analogous to SARPE (surgically assisted rapid palatal expansion). But there can never really be an exact “MSE” for the mandible (due to the mandible being a V shape that doesn’t have a true floor made of bone for you to just screw on an expander) so it’s the closest thing there is to being one

I think I read about this after watching one of Ronald's videos where he mentioned that would have been his ideal way to expand his mandible but he opted for SFOT with freeze dried bone.

MSDO surely provides width, as the mandible is split but does it provide length to the chin? I saw a simulation of how the procedure is performed and not sure whether the chin only experiences lateral growth or if there are any changes in vertical height.

 

[Golden Glass]

I think I read about this after watching one of Ronald's videos where he mentioned that would have been his ideal way to expand his mandible but he opted for SFOT with freeze dried bone.

MSDO surely provides width, as the mandible is split but does it provide length to the chin? I saw a simulation of how the procedure is performed and not sure whether the chin only experiences lateral growth or if there are any changes in vertical height.

No, there is no vertical growth, only lateral.

I’m not aware of any distraction based treatements to gain chin height.

If you wanted an implant and filler-free option for vertical gain in the chin, a sliding genioplasty would be what comes to mind.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

If you were to do MSE for maxilla/midface what would the "MSE" equivalent for the mandible? I.E something just as modestly invasive that isn't full on surgery?

IMDO is closer to being an equivalent, as it enlarges the mandible (widens posteriorly, at the level of the osteotomy and advances the anterior fragment, and by this last movement and the lower teeth sliding under the upper teeth it increases the height of the lower third of the face.

but, in order to have it done we need overjet. So MSDO would be the companion for MSE in cases where IMDO isn’t possible.

 

[MaxxedOut]

IMDO is closer to being an equivalent, as it enlarges the mandible (widens posteriorly, at the level of the osteotomy and advances the anterior fragment, and by this last movement and the lower teeth sliding under the upper teeth it increases the height of the lower third of the face.

but, in order to have it done we need overjet. So MSDO would be the companion for MSE in cases where IMDO isn’t possible.

Just saw some before and afters for IMDO and they are really impressive. Too bad you need an overbite to get it done. The more I research the more MSE and MSDO sound like the way to go.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Just saw some before and afters for IMDO and they are really impressive. Too bad you need an overbite to get it done. The more I research the more MSE and MSDO sound like the way to go.

Well, an overbite can be created in the same surgery with a Le Fort I (but the face has to tolerate it from an aesthetic point of view).

but yes, probably in most cases with a good preop occlusion with no overjet / overbite, MSDO is the way to go.

 

[her]

@Golden Glass Do you know if MSE can be used to correct asymmetry?

 

[Sergio-OMS]

No, it can’t.

 

[( ( ( d[-_-]b ) ) )]

Great thread XD @nelson

 

[Luke LLL]

Great thread XD @nelson

Too funny