Why MSE is more important than Bimax LONG-TERM

SPFromNY914

SPFromNY914

Mistral
Joined
Jul 1, 2020
Posts
2,211
Reputation
1,958
#1.MSE's results are permanent unless your tongue gets paralyzed
#2.Bimax tends to have quite a good amount of relapses
'3. Any potential gains possible with MSE+Facepulling or MSE+Incisor Chewing is more natural and permanent than gains from surgery
#4. MSE Can habituate mewing/proper oral posture and proper oral posture WILL make or break how your face ages and you well you can breathe
#5.Slight true Cheekbone expansion that ain't going to be achieved with Bimax or Lefort 1
#6. MSE is better for freeing up space for dental implants compared to sarpe,conventional expanders, or widening from surgery
#7 IF indeed natural CCW IS Possible from Mewing over a very long period of time (Let's say 5 or 10+ years like the Mews and Magnum Workshop claim), MSE is your one way to ticket to make sure your palate is good and solid to readily mew
 
Last edited:
  • +1
  • Love it
Reactions: 5.5psl, oldcelloser, SOS-Sonic and 14 others
results from mewing/chewing look better than bimax
 
  • JFL
  • +1
Reactions: Kristin, oldcelloser, AscendingHero and 9 others
results from mewing/chewing look better than bimax
Unfortunately and ironically true, it just looks much more natural. Bimax be making niggas look uncanny sometimes
 
Last edited:
  • JFL
  • +1
Reactions: AscendingHero, Marsiere214, SadnessWYJ and 3 others
#1.MSE's results are permanent unless your tongue gets paralyzed
#2.Bimax tends to have quite a good amount of relapses
'3. Any potentially gains possible with MSE+Facepulling or MSE+Incisor Chewing is more natural and permanent than gains from surgery.
#4. MSE Can habituate mewing/proper oral posture and proper oral posture WILL make or break how your face ages and you well you can breathe.
#5.Slight true Cheekbone expansion that can't really be achieved with Bimax or Lefort 1
#6. MSE is better for freeing up space for dental implants compared to sarpe or widening from surgery
#7 IF indeed natural CCW IS Possible from Mewing over a very long period of time (Let's say 5 or 10+ years like the Mews and Magnum Workshop claim), MSE is your one way to ticket to make sure your palate is good and solid to readily mew


It really depends on how bimax is done, especially fixation of the bone fragments.
 
  • +1
Reactions: ChristianChad, SOS-Sonic, AscendingHero and 6 others
yep I agree. Im getting mse before anything else. At the end of the day aesthetics is a consequence of good health.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas, AscendingHero, Agendum and 2 others
It really depends on how bimax is done, especially fixation of the bone fragments.
Yeah for sure Doc, but lemme ask you this....
Would you say that a SuperBimax( CCW Lefort 1,BSSO,IMDO,Genio) will have a higher chance of relapse compared to a conventional Bimax? Also, would having CCW on a Bimax affect the chances of relapse or you really can't say? , yk I appreciate all your time regardless if you awsner or not.🖤
 
  • +1
Reactions: acrylicspider, Be_ConfidentBro and SadnessWYJ
#1.MSE's results are permanent unless your tongue gets paralyzed
#2.Bimax tends to have quite a good amount of relapses
'3. Any potential gains possible with MSE+Facepulling or MSE+Incisor Chewing is more natural and permanent than gains from surgery
#4. MSE Can habituate mewing/proper oral posture and proper oral posture WILL make or break how your face ages and you well you can breathe
#5.Slight true Cheekbone expansion that ain't going to be achieved with Bimax or Lefort 1
#6. MSE is better for freeing up space for dental implants compared to sarpe,conventional expanders, or widening from surgery
#7 IF indeed natural CCW IS Possible from Mewing over a very long period of time (Let's say 5 or 10+ years like the Mews and Magnum Workshop claim), MSE is your one way to ticket to make sure your palate is good and solid to readily mew
I had MSE+MSDO+FM and I can tell you I wish I didn't waste the money on those things and went straight for the bimax.
 
  • +1
  • So Sad
Reactions: freeone12, Sergio-OMS and Deleted member 6892
I had MSE+MSDO+FM and I can tell you I wish I didn't waste the money on those things and went straight for the bimax.
I literally meant Long term bro as in over many many years. But imo MSDO is a waste of money for anyone. As far as facepulling goes, it's hit or miss but it's still worth the shot imo especially if y'all suppement it and you're under 25
Then again, I'm realizing Bimax relapse is still more common than I thought even in 2020. Imagine all that money,pain, and nerve damage just to relapse smh. Looking back at it, Ronald Eid was correct. It really should be the last resort bruh.
Harsh truth is this: There's no one Path for looksmaxxing or surgerymaxxing, you gotta take everything with a grain of salt and be patient to let shit play out you feel me.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 32529, Preoximerianas, AscendingHero and 3 others
breathing gains are insane i got it in now also do u think u should put more force to the front of palate when mewing for counter clockwise rotation.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas, AscendingHero, highT and 2 others
I had MSE+MSDO+FM and I can tell you I wish I didn't waste the money on those things and went straight for the bimax.
how much forward growth did you get
 
how much forward growth did you get
In the end 0. All the gains of the FM are EXTREMELY relapsable, unlike an osteotomy where you cut and fix the bone with screws.
 
  • So Sad
  • +1
Reactions: magnificentcel, MentalistKebab and Deleted member 6892
I had MSE+MSDO+FM and I can tell you I wish I didn't waste the money on those things and went straight for the bimax.
yeah but aren't you like 30 mse did a lot for me and i was 21 when i started my mse
 
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas, yonmaxxed, Slayerino and 1 other person
In the end 0. All the gains of the FM are EXTREMELY relapsable, unlike an osteotomy where you cut and fix the bone with screws.
Idk I ain't never really heard about anyone relapsing from MSE Facepulling gains BUT then again, the amount of people proven to have gains from it aren't that high. Facepulling varies so much, we gotta take everything with a grain of salt
 
brooooo they are completely diff things, mse works as a better replacement for the transverse-widening part thats sometimes needed w bimax (segmental leforts n sarpe are inferior procedures) - #6 is wrong in that regard too. cant rly compare things that act on two diff axis.

results from mewing/chewing look better than bimax
there are no "mewing" results lmfao
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 11875, Preoximerianas, magnificentcel and 3 others
just compare two things where each of them works in a different dimension
 
  • JFL
  • Hmm...
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 11875, Toth's thot, SPFromNY914 and 1 other person
brooooo they are completely diff things, mse works as a better replacement for the transverse-widening part thats sometimes needed w bimax (segmental leforts n sarpe are inferior procedures) - #6 is wrong in that regard too. cant rly compare things that act on two diff axis.


there are no "mewing" results lmfao
Bro do you really believe there are No real results based off of mewing even in the slightest?🤦🏽‍♂️
I mean I get a lot of them are overexxagerated but it truly is a long term game come on now
 
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas, AscendingHero, magnificentcel and 1 other person
In the end 0. All the gains of the FM are EXTREMELY relapsable, unlike an osteotomy where you cut and fix the bone with screws.
brutal, you think itsgpnna be better since ill do it at 15?
 
Yeah for sure Doc, but lemme ask you this....
Would you say that a SuperBimax( CCW Lefort 1,BSSO,IMDO,Genio) will have a higher chance of relapse compared to a conventional Bimax? Also, would having CCW on a Bimax affect the chances of relapse or you really can't say? , yk I appreciate all your time regardless if you awsner or not.🖤

Again, it depends on the fixation. With custom titanium there is no relapse or it's insignificant.

A superbimax is not a one surgery treatment. It is broken down in several steps, so risk of relapse is minimal if the right fixation is used.

And with IMDO soft tissues adapt very well and the relapse that happens in adult patients is corrected afterwards during the bimax

I still think that if a palatal expansion is needed it’s better to have MSE as the first step of the treatment instead of doing the expansion with a SARME or with a 2 or 3 piece Le Fort 1.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas, Be_ConfidentBro, SPFromNY914 and 1 other person
Bro do you really believe there are No real results based off of mewing even in the slightest?🤦🏽‍♂️
I mean I get a lot of them are overexxagerated but it truly is a long term game

the "results" (improved hyoid, atrophied buccinators, maybe stronger masseters) occur AFTER fixing your nasal airways, tongue space, lip seal, and occlusal plane, which requires surgery
 
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas, Iplaysoccer and SPFromNY914
Again, it depends on the fixation. With custom titanium there is no relapse or it's insignificant.

A superbimax is not a one surgery treatment. It is broken down in several steps, so risk of relapse is minimal if the right fixation is used.

And with IMDO soft tissues adapt very well and the relapse that happens in adult patients is corrected afterwards during the bimax

I still think that if a palatal expansion is needed it’s better to have MSE as the first step of the treatment instead of doing the expansion with a SARME or with a 2 or 3 piece Le Fort 1.
Why does Paul Coceancig still engage in SARPE and not MSE? He even called MSE "budget sarpe". Isn't MSE superior overall in terms of results?
 
  • +1
Reactions: Darkstrand
Again, it depends on the fixation. With custom titanium there is no relapse or it's insignificant.

A superbimax is not a one surgery treatment. It is broken down in several steps, so risk of relapse is minimal if the right fixation is used.

And with IMDO soft tissues adapt very well and the relapse that happens in adult patients is corrected afterwards during the bimax

I still think that if a palatal expansion is needed it’s better to have MSE as the first step of the treatment instead of doing the expansion with a SARME or with a 2 or 3 piece Le Fort 1.
Should I talk about the fixation with my surgeon? Or should I search a new one if he doesn't do fixation with custom titanium?
 
Should I talk about the fixation with my surgeon? Or should I search a new one if he doesn't do fixation with custom titanium?

Well, the thing about custom titanium is that the engineer follows the surgeon’s directions and the surgeon is responsible for the accuracy of the records and latest responsible for the whole procedure.

A custom design can relapse if plates aren’t thick enough or the number of screws is insufficient. But the stronger the design, the more expensive the surgery. Custom titanium cost can be up to 10 times the cost of standard plates.

I forgot to say that in my previous messages.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Biiyo03, Be_ConfidentBro, dadfa and 1 other person
In the end 0. All the gains of the FM are EXTREMELY relapsable, unlike an osteotomy where you cut and fix the bone with screws.
The trick is to keep pulling. I have made forward gains with my own facepulling devices on their own with no MSE and have seen some relapse when I stop. I think with using a higher amount of force and making it part of your daily routine you can keep the gains and slowly continue to get forward movement.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 32529 and Need2Ascend
Show me great before afters in face with MSE.

Cuz everyone here can show insane differences with bimax, but you will probably not be able to find great changes in guys who did expand as much as 10mm.
 
  • +1
Reactions: Preoximerianas
I literally meant Long term bro as in over many many years. But imo MSDO is a waste of money for anyone. As far as facepulling goes, it's hit or miss but it's still worth the shot imo especially if y'all suppement it and you're under 25
Then again, I'm realizing Bimax relapse is still more common than I thought even in 2020. Imagine all that money,pain, and nerve damage just to relapse smh. Looking back at it, Ronald Eid was correct. It really should be the last resort bruh.
Harsh truth is this: There's no one Path for looksmaxxing or surgerymaxxing, you gotta take everything with a grain of salt and be patient to let shit play out you feel me.
Why do you feel that msdo is a waste of money? How about a narrow jaw with crooked teeth?
 
Why do you feel that msdo is a waste of money? How about a narrow jaw with crooked teeth?
I have a narrow jaw with crooked teeth and I know I don't need MSDO. Here's why
#1. Once the Mandible is moved forward with either BSSO OR IMDO(I haven't decided yet), the lower jaw will be wider.
#2. It's more about the jaw angle and how wide it is rather than how wide the mandible is. A well developed ramus and wide jaw angle is all you need.
#3. Your lower bite can still be adjusted with those 2 surgeries,sfot, or maybe even a lower expander+Invisalign
#4.Building your neck and growing facial hair can make your mandible look significantly bigger.
#5.MSDO Can potentially cause TMJ or make existing TMJ Worse which can be very hard to fix
#6. The cut on MSDO rounds out the mandible shape making it less sharp. If someone goes thru MSDO thinking they can can get barrett level tier lower jaw or just pfl in general, they're delusional. Jaw angle implants are the best bet for this.
 
Last edited:
  • +1
  • Love it
Reactions: Preoximerianas, AscendingHero and dadfa
Why do you feel that msdo is a waste of money? How about a narrow jaw with crooked teeth?

Because MSDO literally gives a bad result in jaw aesthetics. Look where the cut is. It completely rounds out the mandible in a U shape.
 
  • +1
Reactions: dadfa
zero references, mewing approval, shit thread
 
  • +1
Reactions: Deleted member 11875
I have a narrow jaw with crooked teeth and I know I don't need MSDO. Here's why
#1. Once the Mandible is moved forward with either BSSO OR IMDO(I haven't decided yet), the lower jaw will be wider.
#2. It's more about the jaw angle and how wide it is rather than how wide the mandible is. A well developed ramus and wide jaw angle is all you need.
#3. Your lower bite can still be adjusted with those 2 surgeries,sfot, or maybe even a lower expander+Invisalign
#4.Building your neck and growing facial hair can make your mandible look significantly bigger.
#5.MSDO Can potentially cause TMJ or make existing TMJ Worse which can be very hard to fix
#6. The cut on MSDO rounds out the mandible shape making it less sharp. If someone goes thru MSDO thinking they can can get barrett level tier lower jaw or just pfl in general, they're delusional. Jaw angle implants are the best bet for this.
are you young enough for imdo to even work? does anyone outside of australia (in europe) provide it?
 
are you young enough for imdo to even work? does anyone outside of australia (in europe) provide it?
You really need to learn to use the search box 😛

I’m doing it
 
  • JFL
Reactions: Preoximerianas, AscendingHero, lutte and 2 others
In the end 0. All the gains of the FM are EXTREMELY relapsable, unlike an osteotomy where you cut and fix the bone with screws.
How how many hours/d and months did you wear the facemask?

I made some decent gains with wearing the FM but then lost almost everything over time aswell after I stopped. Currently I'm wearing it again (just at night) and short in the morning with strong force, and it's getting better again. I think the results mog surgery if you can commit yourself to it for a really long time and just wear it at night or even shorter(14-16h/day like some say is unrealistic and unefficient imo)
 
The trick is to keep pulling. I have made forward gains with my own facepulling devices on their own with no MSE and have seen some relapse when I stop. I think with using a higher amount of force and making it part of your daily routine you can keep the gains and slowly continue to get forward movement.
What is your facepulling device? I think you really have to see it like working out or anything else in life, where when you stop you lose gains. We need to make it part of a weekly/daily routine like you said tbh. Maybe after a longer time when your body has adapted you just have to do it 1-2x/week to keep everything(or even none at all anymore)
 
How how many hours/d and months did you wear the facemask?

I made some decent gains with wearing the FM but then lost almost everything over time aswell after I stopped. Currently I'm wearing it again (just at night) and short in the morning with strong force, and it's getting better again. I think the results mog surgery if you can commit yourself to it for a really long time and just wear it at night or even shorter(14-16h/day like some say is unrealistic and unefficient imo)
Bro, wearing a medieval-like harness on your face for 16 hours a day, for 2 years at least, is the most retarded thing you can do to yourself.

I did everything. The facepuller, the mse and bimax.

My final opinion is that nothing mogs an ultra precise cut and movement(bimax), because the face is a mm game, you can't know how many mm a facepuller will move your bones, and which part of the bones.
 
  • +1
  • JFL
Reactions: oldcelloser, Biiyo03 and Need2Ascend
Bro, wearing a medieval-like harness on your face for 16 hours a day, for 2 years at least, is the most retarded thing you can do to yourself.

I did everything. The facepuller, the mse and bimax.

My final opinion is that nothing mogs an ultra precise cut and movement(bimax), because the face is a mm game, you can't know how many mm a facepuller will move your bones, and which part of the bones.
Bimax is always the last solution.

You don't have to wear that shit 16h/day. I've done it and it's absolutetly retarded. You will get most of the gains with much less duration(short duration strong force and then keeping good oral posture for the rest of the day leaving time for your body to adapt is ideal).
Facepulling, contrary to surgically cutting your bones, changes your whole cranial base (fe. moving your supras forward aswell).
 
  • +1
Reactions: SPFromNY914
Bimax is always the last solution.

You don't have to wear that shit 16h/day. I've done it and it's absolutetly retarded. You will get most of the gains with much less duration(short duration strong force and then keeping good oral posture for the rest of the day leaving time for your body to adapt is ideal).
Facepulling, contrary to surgically cutting your bones, changes your whole cranial base (fe. moving your supras forward aswell).
I don't know what kind of change you got from wearing facemask with mse but I doubt its skeletal. I don't think it even works with children... You are pulling from molar bands after all, all that force goes onto teeth, not onto bone...
 
I don't know what kind of change you got from wearing facemask with mse but I doubt its skeletal. I don't think it even works with children... You are pulling from molar bands after all, all that force goes onto teeth, not onto bone...
Mse is bone anchored ...
 
Mse is bone anchored ...
Don't tell me you think those molar bands are more resistant than bone itself... We are talking about bones, they sometimes even resist fracture from car accidents, punches etc... Even if that force has a little ability to transfer from molar bands onto the anchor point, molar bands will bend before that happening anyways(which does not even happen anyways at first place...). Those expanders are custom made by orthodontic technicians, whom bend those wires by hands. Do you think something that can be bent so easily even by someones hands even has a chance to compete with the resistance from bone? In summary you are putting all that force onto your molars, and in turn onto your teeth. Any slight forward change you get is either from dental movement or dentoalveolar bone remodelling. Not from true skeletal movement...

Watch how hyrax expanders are made(mse is made in a similar way, the only difference is that it has skeletal anchorage in the middle of the expander device, and sometimes it can come with hard arms, even which are not enough to compete against bone):


Had someone maybe found a way to safely pull from the anchorage point itself without dislocating it, maybe results would be different. I have never seen something like that so far(Other than bollard plates, which has no published results on adults)
 
Last edited:
Mse works for expansion on adults because it expands from the anchorage point itself. Try that with normal hyrax expander, and you will see nearly no skeletal results if you are an adult. Pulling from mse molard bands is no different than trying to expand an adults palate with a classic hyrax expander...
 
  • +1
Reactions: SOS-Sonic
2-3 piece lefort can widen your maxilla
 
This doesn't matter unless you find someone who can actually give you an MSE/bimax treatment and doesn't cuck you with random bullshit.
 

Similar threads

oldcel2002
Replies
61
Views
4K
no-mogger-no-cry
N
enchanted_elixir
Replies
93
Views
13K
One Rep Max
O
illyrian
Replies
36
Views
3K
Methhead
Methhead
JawHacksNumber1Fan
Replies
10
Views
1K
Whatashame
Whatashame

Users who are viewing this thread

Back
Top