BIMAXXERS GTFIH! TEETH DECOMPENSATION

[Deleted member 19766]

A quote from @Lorsss:
"Y2J97 fixed his overbite at 20, while at 22 he had a consultation for bimax.
Doctor Ramieri recommended to him a 1 year decompensation treatment to restore his natural overbite in order to prepare for his bimax, but Y2J97 refused and went to Pagnoni, who was willing to perform bimax immediately.

This choice contributed in his botched bimax result"
Source: Post in thread 'Thoughts on retainers?' https://looksmax.org/threads/thoughts-on-retainers.447044/post-7376935

Should those seeking bimax always get decompensation at recommendation? Some may view it as "bluepilled" but I think it and (smart) extractions could be very underrated by this forum.

I do wonder if it's worth the 6-18 months though, especially if you're in your prime and if it'll barely increase how much you can advance your jaw by.

Thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 19766]

bump

 

[longjohnmong]

Who recommended you get decompensation?

 

[Deleted member 19766]

Who recommended you get decompensation?

i dont even know if i need it yet JFL, but I think I might cause I had camoflauge orthodontics twice (rubber bands), but they were done in puberty so they moved the jaws skeletally so I feel like they might've not needed to compensate, if that makes sense
I'm consulting with Ramieri soon, scheduled an appointment recently, really not a fan at all of having to sit in braces for years tho

 

[Krakowski]

Lol @ getting bimax before 25

 

[Deleted member 19766]

Lol @ getting bimax before 25

True bro better wait!!! You're not done growing!!

i might get bimax again after 25 tbh

 

[longjohnmong]

i dont even know if i need it yet JFL, but I think I might cause I had camoflauge orthodontics twice (rubber bands), but they were done in puberty so they moved the jaws skeletally so I feel like they might've not needed to compensate, if that makes sense
I'm consulting with Ramieri soon, scheduled an appointment recently, really not a fan at all of having to sit in braces for years tho

Ramieri is like the decompensation guy. He recommended I get it. I had camo orthodontics with bands as a kid and no overbite going into surgery. But I ultimately didn't have decompensation and still got a substatial mandibular advancement, which was 12mm, not including genio.

 

[Deleted member 19766]

Ramieri is like the decompensation guy. He recommended I get it. I had camo orthodontics with bands as a kid and no overbite going into surgery. But I ultimately didn't have decompensation and still got a substatial mandibular advancement, which was 12mm, not including genio.

I think it depends on your starting occlusal angle. If you have steep occlusal plane then it allows for more rotation so you don't need

i see, what do you think of that guy getting "botched" by not doing it though?

and also, just to clarify, you're saying that you can do it to get a bigger advancement and rotation but if you already have a steep one (I do) then it's not necessary, right?

 

[Krakowski]

True bro better wait!!! You're not done growing!!

Not what I meant

 

[longjohnmong]

and also, just to clarify, you're saying that you can do it to get a bigger advancement and rotation but if you already have a steep one (I do) then it's not necessary, right?

I meant to delete that part because the more I thought about it the more it didn't make sense why anyone with recessed jaws couldn't get a lot of advancement because if you don't have a steep occlusal angle then you'd have to have a super recessed maxilla, which would also allow for a lot of advancement, but then I realized I have no fucking clue what I'm talk about. I guess maybe there are cases where you don't have super recessed maxilla or steep occlusal plane but still have recessed mandible.

But, yeah, if you have steep occlusal angle then it allows for a lot of rotation, therefore a lot of advancement. Mine was -14.8 to start and was rotated to -6.3 about the ANS.

The dude who got botched by Pagnoni didn't need bimax at all. Wasn't he like really attractive to begin with and mentally ill? If that's the case you're talking about.

 

[Deleted member 19766]

I meant to delete that part because the more I thought about it the more it didn't make sense why anyone with recessed jaws couldn't get a lot of advancement because if you don't have a steep occlusal angle then you'd have to have a super recessed maxilla, which would also allow for a lot of advancement, but then I realized I have no fucking clue what I'm talk about. I guess maybe there are cases where you don't have super recessed maxilla or steep occlusal plane but still have recessed mandible.

But, yeah, if you have steep occlusal angle then it allows for a lot of rotation, therefore a lot of advancement. Mine was -14.8 to start and was rotated to -6.3 about the ANS.

The dude who got botched by Pagnoni didn't need bimax at all. Wasn't he like really attractive to begin with and mentally ill? If that's the case you're talking about.

From @DeformedCell
"WTF? Like you don't even braces? JFL wtf is this. Every "surgery first" expererience that i've seen ended rather miserably, the maxfacs i already saw told me it was basically a meme and that orthodontics decompression was necessary. My teeth are sligtly crowded, but holly fck how did your surgeon even operate on you with that."

 

[Deleted member 32196]

Ramieri is like the decompensation guy. He recommended I get it. I had camo orthodontics with bands as a kid and no overbite going into surgery. But I ultimately didn't have decompensation and still got a substatial mandibular advancement, which was 12mm, not including genio.

can you have a look at my case in DMs?

 

[Foreverbrad]

Even Pagnoni recommended decompensation for me.
I think it’s just good practice really. I don’t mind, it’s just a pain finding an ortho who isn’t a blue pilled greedy cuck who only wants to do zero effort standard jobs.

 

[longjohnmong]

Even Pagnoni recommended decompensation for me.
I think it’s just good practice really. I don’t mind, it’s just a pain finding an ortho who isn’t a blue pilled greedy cuck who only wants to do zero effort standard jobs.

Did he recommend having teeth pulled? I was assuming we were talking this whole time about having teeth pulled and "decompensating" teeth that weren't actually compensated in the first place.

 

[Foreverbrad]

Did he recommend having teeth pulled? I was assuming we were talking this whole time about having teeth pulled and "decompensating" teeth that weren't actually compensated in the first place.

Nope - just to move the teeth in order that the occlusion will fit together nicely after the bimax movements. Compensation isn’t necessarily due to orthodontics, can also just be movement forced by your skeletal malocclusion to have a usable bite pattern.

 

[longjohnmong]

Nope - just to move the teeth in order that the occlusion will fit together nicely after the bimax movements. Compensation isn’t necessarily due to orthodontics, can also just be movement forced by your skeletal malocclusion to have a usable bite pattern.

Yeah, that's a different scenario than I thought we were talking about.

 

[DelonLover1999]

Decompensation is sometimes necessary for single jaw surgery. But for a regular Bimax, theoretically, there's almost always an option to operate without doing it. It might limit how much advancement you can do, tho.

 

[Foreverbrad]

Decompensation is sometimes necessary for single jaw surgery. But for a regular Bimax, theoretically, there's almost always an option to operate without doing it. It might limit how much advancement you can do, tho.

It also limits rotations and other fun stuff, basically you just move both jaws together and keep existing occlusion. If your existing occlusion is shit then it’s not a great plan (my occlusal plane is not flat, for example)

 

[DelonLover1999]

It also limits rotations and other fun stuff, basically you just move both jaws together and keep existing occlusion. If your existing occlusion is shit then it’s not a great plan (my occlusal plane is not flat, for example)

Yeah, agreed.

Does it really limit rotation that much, tho? Theoretically, you could still get ccw with a downgrown occlusal plane that has a normal bite, no?

But maybe this limitation you're referring to comes from the fact that the maxilla would be bottlenecking the rotation pretty hard.

 

[Foreverbrad]

Yeah, agreed.

Does it really limit rotation that much, tho? Theoretically, you could still get ccw with a downgrown occlusal plane that has a normal bite, no?

But maybe this limitation you're referring to comes from the fact that the maxilla would be bottlenecking the rotation pretty hard.

You could definitely do that. I was referring to rotation to fix things like deep bite.

 

[DelonLover1999]

You could definitely do that. I was referring to rotation to fix things like deep bite.

Oh, yeah. Forgot about that.

That's the main thing that's making me question BSSO vs Bimax. I would probably need post-surgery braces to fix the deep bite, if I went with the former.

 

[ScramFranklin]

Ramieri is like the decompensation guy. He recommended I get it. I had camo orthodontics with bands as a kid and no overbite going into surgery. But I ultimately didn't have decompensation and still got a substatial mandibular advancement, which was 12mm, not including genio.

Can you share your before/after pics? I’m getting 10-12mm of mandibular movement as well

 

[bradpittshairline]

I currently have a untreated virgin bite (jfl) so you're saying I shouldn't fuck with it until I'm getting a bimax sine they'll have to undo everything?

 

[bradpittshairline]

You could definitely do that. I was referring to rotation to fix things like deep bite.

isnt deep bite and overbite the same? In that case will a BSSO suffice? When you replied to my thread you mentioned relative position of teeth, will BSSO help improve lip competency?

 

[longjohnmong]

Can you share your before/after pics? I’m getting 10-12mm of mandibular movement as well

 

[Foreverbrad]

isnt deep bite and overbite the same? In that case will a BSSO suffice? When you replied to my thread you mentioned relative position of teeth, will BSSO help improve lip competency?

Overbite/overjet is a horizontal mismatch, deep bite a vertical one.

My bite just got even deeper after wisdom teeth removal JFL. I don’t think there’s really much point considering BSSO in isolation from lefort 1, the cost difference and recovery difference is minor compared to the additional control you get.

 

[Deleted member 19766]

isnt deep bite and overbite the same? In that case will a BSSO suffice? When you replied to my thread you mentioned relative position of teeth, will BSSO help improve lip competency?

Link thread please

 

[Deleted member 19766]

Overbite/overjet is a horizontal mismatch, deep bite a vertical one.

My bite just got even deeper after wisdom teeth removal JFL. I don’t think there’s really much point considering BSSO in isolation from lefort 1, the cost difference and recovery difference is minor compared to the additional control you get.

Bro I thought overbite and deep bite were interchangeable terms JFL

 

[DelonLover1999]

Overbite/overjet is a horizontal mismatch, deep bite a vertical one.

My bite just got even deeper after wisdom teeth removal JFL. I don’t think there’s really much point considering BSSO in isolation from lefort 1, the cost difference and recovery difference is minor compared to the additional control you get.

I've heard people saying that the recovery for BSSO is way easier, others saying it's sort of the same. Hard to know for sure, since no one has ever gotten both one after the other (except maybe in a revision scenario, but it would be really hard to find someone like that).

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Bro I thought overbite and deep bite were interchangeable terms JFL

They are, overbite and deep bite are the same thing. Overjet is the horizontal one

 

[Deleted member 19766]

They are, overbite and deep bite are the same thing. Overjet is the horizontal one

i dont fully understand the diff between overbite and overjet, can u elaborate?

 

[optimisticzoomer]

i dont fully understand the diff between overbite and overjet, can u elaborate?

They seem to be used interchangeably, but technically overjet is where upper teeth are too far forward compared to lower teeth, and overbite is like deep bite where the upper teeth cover too much of the lower teeth vertically

 

[Deleted member 19766]

They seem to be used interchangeably, but technically overjet is where upper teeth are too far forward compared to lower teeth, and overbite is like deep bite where the upper teeth cover too much of the lower teeth vertically
View attachment 2493381View attachment 2493382

oh shit i guess i have overjet then? weird cause orthodontists always call mine an overbite...

 

[optimisticzoomer]

oh shit i guess i have overjet then? weird cause orthodontists always call mine an overbite...

You might have both

 

[ScramFranklin]

View attachment 2492921
View attachment 2492922

Mirin extremely hard. How did your life improve? I assume substantially.

 

[longjohnmong]

Mirin extremely hard. How did your life improve? I assume substantially.

Thanks. It's a bit misleading because the first pick is when I was 18 (21 years ago), but I got a chin implant shortly after that, so it would also be misleading to compare me with chin implant to me with bimax minus chin implant. But here's what that looks like:

Still a substantial improvement, imo. It looks a lot better from the front, too. It's subtle but I always had this "weird" look that was hard to pin down, and now that's gone.

Surgery was only 5 weeks ago, so nothing has really changed. I've barely been out. I'm still swollen. And my nose is also deformed. Getting that fixed around February hopefully.

 

[bradpittshairline]

Overbite/overjet is a horizontal mismatch, deep bite a vertical one.

My bite just got even deeper after wisdom teeth removal JFL. I don’t think there’s really much point considering BSSO in isolation from lefort 1, the cost difference and recovery difference is minor compared to the additional control you get.

Does SFS indicate deep bite?

 

[Deleted member 32196]

Thanks. It's a bit misleading because the first pick is when I was 18 (21 years ago), but I got a chin implant shortly after that, so it would also be misleading to compare me with chin implant to me with bimax minus chin implant. But here's what that looks like:

View attachment 2493502

Still a substantial improvement, imo. It looks a lot better from the front, too. It's subtle but I always had this "weird" look that was hard to pin down, and now that's gone.

Surgery was only 5 weeks ago, so nothing has really changed. I've barely been out. I'm still swollen. And my nose is also deformed. Getting that fixed around February hopefully.

was your nose deformed by the bimax?

 

[Gaygymmaxx]

At 5"6, all DE-compensation is something I never do.

 

[longjohnmong]

was your nose deformed by the bimax?

I had a botched rhino when I got my chin implant. The bimax made it worse because my nose was all stiff and couldn't really adjust to any movement the way a normal nose would.

I think this is true for all rhinos and not just because I was botched but the nose gets all hard, so it's frozen in one position. That's why if you're planning on rhino you should always have it during or after jaw surgery. I was always planning on getting revision after the bimax and kind of expected it to make my nose worse.

 

[ScramFranklin]

Thanks. It's a bit misleading because the first pick is when I was 18 (21 years ago), but I got a chin implant shortly after that, so it would also be misleading to compare me with chin implant to me with bimax minus chin implant. But here's what that looks like:

View attachment 2493502

Still a substantial improvement, imo. It looks a lot better from the front, too. It's subtle but I always had this "weird" look that was hard to pin down, and now that's gone.

Surgery was only 5 weeks ago, so nothing has really changed. I've barely been out. I'm still swollen. And my nose is also deformed. Getting that fixed around February hopefully.

Yes, the bimax looks SO much better than the chin implant. Congrats on your new lease on life! I’m 33 and getting my jaw surgery in the spring

 

[usernametravis888]

Just always push your lower jaw fowards and it'll be better

 

[Matthias8272]

I don't think everyone needs to decompensate, when I consulted with ramieri he said I was surgery first

 

[FutureSlayer]

A quote from @Lorsss:
"Y2J97 fixed his overbite at 20, while at 22 he had a consultation for bimax.
Doctor Ramieri recommended to him a 1 year decompensation treatment to restore his natural overbite in order to prepare for his bimax, but Y2J97 refused and went to Pagnoni, who was willing to perform bimax immediately.

This choice contributed in his botched bimax result"
Source: Post in thread 'Thoughts on retainers?' https://looksmax.org/threads/thoughts-on-retainers.447044/post-7376935

Should those seeking bimax always get decompensation at recommendation? Some may view it as "bluepilled" but I think it and (smart) extractions could be very underrated by this forum.

I do wonder if it's worth the 6-18 months though, especially if you're in your prime and if it'll barely increase how much you can advance your jaw by.

Thoughts?

yes, decompensation first if you don’t wanna risk

 

[12PSLsubhuman]

I had a botched rhino when I got my chin implant. The bimax made it worse because my nose was all stiff and couldn't really adjust to any movement the way a normal nose would.

I think this is true for all rhinos and not just because I was botched but the nose gets all hard, so it's frozen in one position. That's why if you're planning on rhino you should always have it during or after jaw surgery. I was always planning on getting revision after the bimax and kind of expected it to make my nose worse.

yes, decompensation first if you don’t wanna risk

A quote from @Lorsss:
"Y2J97 fixed his overbite at 20, while at 22 he had a consultation for bimax.
Doctor Ramieri recommended to him a 1 year decompensation treatment to restore his natural overbite in order to prepare for his bimax, but Y2J97 refused and went to Pagnoni, who was willing to perform bimax immediately.

This choice contributed in his botched bimax result"
Source: Post in thread 'Thoughts on retainers?' https://looksmax.org/threads/thoughts-on-retainers.447044/post-7376935

Should those seeking bimax always get decompensation at recommendation? Some may view it as "bluepilled" but I think it and (smart) extractions could be very underrated by this forum.

I do wonder if it's worth the 6-18 months though, especially if you're in your prime and if it'll barely increase how much you can advance your jaw by.

Thoughts?

Will extraction decompensations affect surrounding bone mass, ie, the cheekbones, ramus etc?

 

[Deleted member 19766]

Will extraction decompensations affect surrounding bone mass, ie, the cheekbones, ramus etc?

i dont think so

 

[Meister!]

I meant to delete that part because the more I thought about it the more it didn't make sense why anyone with recessed jaws couldn't get a lot of advancement because if you don't have a steep occlusal angle then you'd have to have a super recessed maxilla, which would also allow for a lot of advancement, but then I realized I have no fucking clue what I'm talk about. I guess maybe there are cases where you don't have super recessed maxilla or steep occlusal plane but still have recessed mandible.

But, yeah, if you have steep occlusal angle then it allows for a lot of rotation, therefore a lot of advancement. Mine was -14.8 to start and was rotated to -6.3 about the ANS.

The dude who got botched by Pagnoni didn't need bimax at all. Wasn't he like really attractive to begin with and mentally ill? If that's the case you're talking about.

No he is talking about @Y2J97, not the mentally ill guy that came here and tried to slander Pagnoni. Truth be told, Pagnoni can be and is a good surgeon, but he also would operate on anyone that would ask him. Many say he is very nice and warm, which is true but he is also a salesman type surgeon.

 

[Deleted member 19766]

No he is talking about @Y2J97, not the mentally ill guy that came here and tried to slander Pagnoni. Truth be told, Pagnoni can be and is a good surgeon, but he also would operate on anyone that would ask him. Many say he is very nice and warm, which is true but he is also a salesman type surgeon.

I been trying to contact him or anyone else that knows his case to learn more about it and what happened, do u know?

 

[Deleted member 19766]

Ramieri is like the decompensation guy. He recommended I get it. I had camo orthodontics with bands as a kid and no overbite going into surgery. But I ultimately didn't have decompensation and still got a substatial mandibular advancement, which was 12mm, not including genio.

Is it good that I have a big overbite rn then? I think it is but Alfaro has a list that says smth about class 2 being bad for surgery first