Can an educated OP please tell me the difference between Facepulling with N2 Implants and Facepulling without?

[SPFromNY914]

This shit is too complicated for my ass.

The efficacy of maxillary protraction protocols with the micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) and the novel N2 mini-implant—a finite element study - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Maxillary protraction with the novel N2 mini-implant- and micro-implant-assisted rapid palatal expander (MARPE) can potentially provide significant skeletal effects without surgery, even in older patients where conventional facemask therapy has limited skeletal effects. However, the...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

 

[curryslayerordeath]

neither of them work so...

 

[SPFromNY914]

neither of them work so...

Ok but I just want to know the difference

 

[curryslayerordeath]

Ok but I just want to know the difference

facepulling without=anchored to some appliance on the palate or molars, no difference between its mechanism and surgical ccw

face pulling w n2=theoretical simulation done by moons lab, placed too much stress on the sinus and other critical areas so wasn’t developed

 

[Chintuck22]

You could've atleast tagged them

@nelson @retard

@goat2x brocel, what was that maxillosurgeon called ?

 

[goat2x]

You could've atleast tagged them

@nelson @retard

@goat2x brocel, what was that maxillosurgeon called ?

@Sergio-OMS

 

[Mongrelcel]

Isnt N2 just an anchor to the skull? And doing it without is basically someting like nelsons deisgn? Study mentions that facepulling without N2 implant creates tipping of molars and incisors. I dont see why would teeth tip if you had a skeletal anchor.
Facepulling without having a proper achnor in the skull (soild enough so screw drag isnt introduced) is a fucking meme.

There is a study by Won Moon, however the results are only simulated. Data used for simulation was from a 42 years old man.

The screw should be the N2 implant if I understand correctly.
This is simulation F (also C, which is -15 degrees), we are most interested in this one - the angle of pulling is +30 degrees.

"Anterior-micro-implants-facemask (Ant-MI-FM) [−15°]and Ant-MI-FM [+30°] also display counter-clockwise rota-tion."

"Ant-MI-FM [−15°]would be beneficial in patients who display a high man-dibular angle and excessive incisor show, as the forcevector restricts downward displacement of the anteriormaxilla."

(Morph showing what mandibular angle means)

Images many of you have already seen.

So to answer your question OP, N2 implant IS EVERYTING

But you could substitute N2 implant for MSE, since it's similar I guess. N2 are just 2 screws (if I understand correctly), while MSE is 4 - this could limit the amount of screw drag you would get.​

 

[Mongrelcel]

However this is mse + hooks for FM, which is the most realistic alternative for all of us:

Its also -30 degrees.
Its this exact simulation:

Which is not great at all. But its a 42 year old man after all - but the angle remains terrible.

This is the angle used for simulation B, I supposed you could achieve a better angle, but from the way I see it, the more is the angle closer to 0 (pulling straight ahead) the more you run the risk of tipping molars (which probably will happen anyway)

The material properties of bone in this study wereassumed to be linear elastic, isotropic, and time inde-pendent. This is a simplification, as real bone is more anisotropic and time dependent. Bone growth cannot be simulated; we can only show how the internal strain canpromote or restrict growth. In addition, no distinctionwas made between cancellous and cortical bone.

I have no idea which type of bone was used in the simulation, since they didnt differentiate between them at all.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

But you could substitute N2 implant for MSE, since it's similar I guess. N2 are just 2 screws (if I understand correctly), while MSE is 4 - this could limit the amount of screw drag you would get.

it is better not to anchor the facemask in the MSE and dissociate the expansion and the protraction.

My suggestion is to get plates installed as in the BAMP protocol, and also MSE.

 

[SPFromNY914]

However this is mse + hooks for FM, which is the most realistic alternative for all of us:
View attachment 674687
Its also -30 degrees.
Its this exact simulation:
View attachment 674689
Which is not great at all. But its a 42 year old man after all - but the angle remains terrible.
View attachment 674693
This is the angle used for simulation B, I supposed you could achieve a better angle, but from the way I see it, the more is the angle closer to 0 (pulling straight ahead) the more you run the risk of tipping molars (which probably will happen anyway)

The material properties of bone in this study wereassumed to be linear elastic, isotropic, and time inde-pendent. This is a simplification, as real bone is more anisotropic and time dependent. Bone growth cannot be simulated; we can only show how the internal strain canpromote or restrict growth. In addition, no distinctionwas made between cancellous and cortical bone.
View attachment 674698
View attachment 674700
I have no idea which type of bone was used in the simulation, since they didnt differentiate between them at all.

So MSE+FM is cope for full ccw m/upward pulling? I can't afford to go down and forward for my face at the moment

 

[Mongrelcel]

So MSE+FM is cope for full ccw m/upward pulling? I can't afford to go down and forward for my face at the moment

I dont know dude, how would you pull at a good enough angle?

 

[Deleted member 6892]

So MSE+FM is cope for full ccw m/upward pulling? I can't afford to go down and forward for my face at the moment

MSE+FM only achieves forward protraction I believe since it's far back in the maxilla

 

[Mongrelcel]

it is better not to anchor the facemask in the MSE and dissociate the expansion and the protraction.

My suggestion is to get plates installed as in the BAMP protocol, and also MSE.

Do you know where such a procedure could be preformed? Or, where I can find out this info?
What do you think about installing MSE JUST to facepull? Or is the "suture disruption" (is that even a real thing? Ive only seen people on here say this term) necessary for successful facepulling?

 

[SPFromNY914]

MSE+FM only achieves forward protraction I believe since it's far back in the maxilla

I mean, is it cope to pull upward(not down and forward) and expect decent results? Ronald said that's what he was trying to do and Newaz said hes gonna try it with me but i Don't know if I'm wasting my time

 

[Deleted member 6892]

I mean, is it cope to pull upward(not down and forward) and expect decent results? Ronald said that's what he was trying to do

Yes its to far back for there to be ccw when you pull upward. To achieve ccw you need pressure on front of maxilla, MSE is more like upward pressure on the middle.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

I mean, is it cope to pull upward(not down and forward) and expect decent results? Ronald said that's what he was trying to do and Newaz said hes gonna try it with me but i Don't know if I'm wasting my time

My man newaz is like a hooker hes down for anything for the right price.

 

[SPFromNY914]

Yes its to far back for there to be ccw when you pull upward. To achieve ccw you need pressure on front of maxilla, MSE is more like upward pressure on the middle.

Damn, that's tuff. I guess I really NEED Bimax and implant now after MSE now

 

[Deleted member 6892]

Damn, that's tuff. I guess I really NEED Bimax and implant now after MSE now

Bimax won’t provide you actual CCW either outside of LF1 area

 

[SPFromNY914]

Bimax won’t provide you actual CCW either outside of LF1 area

Ik man but I need that regardless before I do any implants. I'm gonna still give upward facepulling a go and supplement it with Hgh and shit before Bimax

 

[Deleted member 6892]

Ik man but I need that regardless before I do any implants. I'm gonna still give upward facepulling a go and supplement it with Hgh and shit before Bimax

Try chewing and frontal mewing theres a chance it works but idk

im gonna do Facemask with HGH as well hopefully it helps

 

[SPFromNY914]

I dont know dude, how would you pull at a good enough angle?

Also, will going down and forward improve ramus length or does that have nothing to do with it?

 

[clavicel]

it is better not to anchor the facemask in the MSE and dissociate the expansion and the protraction.

My suggestion is to get plates installed as in the BAMP protocol, and also MSE.

Why? I was under the impression that the ideal time for protraction is when the suture is split, Dr. Ting says so in his interview with Ronald Ead.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Why? I was under the impression that the ideal time for protraction is when the suture is split, Dr. Ting says so in his interview with Ronald Ead.

I is, indeed. The timing has nothing to do with the anchor points where to protract from.

 

[clavicel]

I is, indeed. The timing has nothing to do with the anchor points where to protract from.

Oh I see, you were referring to the anchor points, not the timing. Thank you for the clarification.

 

[Deleted member 3635]

I mean, is it cope to pull upward(not down and forward) and expect decent results? Ronald said that's what he was trying to do and Newaz said hes gonna try it with me but i Don't know if I'm wasting my time

Retard mentioned that pulling slightly downward while frontal mewing is best since its at the back