if u can predict the energy state of a given atom

[slayer69]

u can predict @_MVP_ 's next thread

but alas u cant accurately pinpoint predict the energy state of an atom, u can only make a probability distribution of the possible energy states.
and why? because we live in a FREE WILL world

 

[Lefty Rankin]

Someone trying to sound smart lol.

 

[slayer69]

Someone trying to sound smart lol.

whats smart about it
its basic common sense

 

[Lefty Rankin]

whats smart about it
its basic common sense

I don't know sir.

 

[slayer69]

I don't know sir.

stop being a passive aggresive retard
whose alt is this

 

[Deleted member 25059]

stop being a passive aggresive retard
whose alt is this

mods, he is an alt!

 

[slayer69]

mods, he is an alt!

who cares if its an alt
u r an alt too

 

[Magical Apple]

u can predict @_MVP_ 's next thread

but alas u cant accurately pinpoint predict the energy state of an atom, u can only make a probability distribution of the possible energy states.
and why? because we live in a FREE WILL world

non determinism does not imply free will in the conventional sense. You could say the universe has a degree of free will but not the individual.

 

[slayer69]

non determinism does not imply free will in the conventional sense. You could say the universe has a degree of free will but not the individual.

i disagree.
the individual has free will.

 

[Magical Apple]

i disagree.
the individual has free will.

By your logic elementary particles also have free will.

 

[Lefty Rankin]

stop being a passive aggresive retard
whose alt is this

Passive? Boy I'll pass you around to my goons.

 

[slayer69]

By your logic elementary particles also have free will.

u r saying as if free will on a macro-scale will not result in a change on a micro scale.

 

[slayer69]

Passive? Boy I'll pass you around to my goons.

say nigger right now

 

[Lefty Rankin]

say nigger right now

Nigger beans

 

[Magical Apple]

u r saying as if free will on a macro-scale will not result in a change it on a micro scale.

Arguments about individual free will break down because you cannot separate the individual from the rest of the universe. The self is objectively not quantized even though it feels that way. Saying "I have free will" is identical to saying any other natural process has free will. It's meaningless.

 

[slayer69]

Arguments about individual free will break down because you cannot separate the individual from the rest of the universe. The self is objectively not quantized even though it feels that way. Saying "I have free will" is identical to saying any other natural process has free will. It's meaningless.

And saying I'm only doing this because some butterfly stroked because of lightning is equally meaningless.

 

[Magical Apple]

And saying I'm only doing this because some butterfly stroked because of lightning is equally meaningless.

No, this has extreme practical value in real life. Once you realize that people operate on naturalistic principles instead of "free will" you will be able to make much better decisions. When the river floods, you don't stop the flood by attempting to appeal to the river's sense of free will, you build canals and dams to redirect its flow. Apply this same philosophy to humans.

 

[slayer69]

No, this has extreme practical value in real life. Once you realize that people operate on naturalistic principles instead of "free will" you will be able to make much better decisions. When the river floods, you don't stop the flood by attempting to appeal to the river's sense of free will, you build canals and dams to redirect its flow. Apply this same philosophy to humans.

you are comparing patterns and trends to how people operate on an individual level.
you do realize people as individuals are hard to crack but as groups of population they form patterns?
thats very wrong to compare this to free will.
its like saying an electron never has collisions. it does but it still ends up drifiting.

 

[Deleted member 25938]

Someone trying to sound smart lol.

Someone doesn't know about Schrodinger.

 

[Deleted member 25938]

Also, to comment on OP, my opinions on your thoughts are kinda mixed. This is partly due to the paradox of what is considered free will.

We see things as free agents because that's how we as humans, with our own logical constructs, interpret the events occurring around us, particularly the events that we choose. However, if we "zoom out" or "zoom in" far enough, the only thing we can see are either the Earth being engulfed in a supernova (due to light-time travel) or as atoms engaging in quantum mechanics. Schrodinger's wave function, which addresses the probability of x event in an atomic particle, can be interpreted as an attempts to dissect on whether our atoms and quarks --- and thus our bodies and the universe --- are truly predeterministic or not.

At the end of the day, it's really about how we apply such knowledge, and what stance we should adopt. And for our sanity, we choose that we are free agents. Nobody wants to feel like they have no control over their lives.

 

[slayer69]

Also, to comment on OP, my opinions on your thoughts are kinda mixed. This is partly due to the paradox of what is considered free will.

We see things as free agents because that's how we as humans, with our own logical constructs, interpret the events occurring around us, particularly the events that we choose. However, if we "zoom out" or "zoom in" far enough, the only thing we can see are either the Earth being engulfed in a supernova (due to light-time travel) or as atoms engaging in quantum mechanics. Schrodinger's wave function, which addresses the probability of x event in an atomic particle, can be interpreted as an attempts to dissect on whether our atoms and quarks --- and thus our bodies and the universe --- are truly predeterministic or not.

At the end of the day, it's really about how we apply such knowledge, and what stance we should adopt. And for our sanity, we choose that we are free agents. Nobody wants to feel like they have no control over their lives.

we are not predeterministic.
u do realize where schrodinger's equation comes from right? heisenberg's uncertainity principle.
the whole idea is that actions and movements -- be it of quarks or human - are unpredictable.

 

[Deleted member 25938]

the whole idea is that actions and movements -- be it of quarks or human - are unpredictable.

The thing is, are they unpredictable as a result of free will being a true concept? Or are they unpredictable because we don't know whether actions and movements are predeterministic or transcendent of such constraints?

Do you get what I'm trying to get at? Can you also see how this can become an epistemological quagmire?

 

[slayer69]

The thing is, are they unpredictable as a result of free will being a true concept? Or are they unpredictable because we don't know whether actions and movements are predeterministic or transcendent of such constraints?

Do you get what I'm trying to get at? Can you also see how this can become an epistemological quagmire?

yeah i get ur point but think about it

the schrodinger equation doesnt give us the predicition, just a probability distribution of the place of a quanta. its literally like entropy. its not the answer but the probability of such ending up there.

I would say its the former more, because we cant say. thats what i believe in.

 

[Magical Apple]

you are comparing patterns and trends to how people operate on an individual level.
you do realize people as individuals are hard to crack but as groups of population they form patterns?
thats very wrong to compare this to free will.
its like saying an electron never has collisions. it does but it still ends up drifiting.

You can't tell exactly what people will do just like you cant tell exactly what other natural phenomena will do. All you can do is try your best. Treat people the same. For example, if you meet a woman and she shows characteristics that predict infidelity ignore her even if she claims that she has decided to be faithful.

It will protect you and make you a lot happier. Once you realize that people just follow natural laws you will see that getting angry at them is as stupid as getting angry at the rain for falling. Its pointless. When you see the clouds, bring an umbrella. Don't ask the sky to will itself not to rain.

 

[Magical Apple]

The thing is, are they unpredictable as a result of free will being a true concept? Or are they unpredictable because we don't know whether actions and movements are predeterministic or transcendent of such constraints?

Do you get what I'm trying to get at? Can you also see how this can become an epistemological quagmire?

 

[Deleted member 24278]

Cope

 

[Magical Apple]

Also, to comment on OP, my opinions on your thoughts are kinda mixed. This is partly due to the paradox of what is considered free will.

We see things as free agents because that's how we as humans, with our own logical constructs, interpret the events occurring around us, particularly the events that we choose. However, if we "zoom out" or "zoom in" far enough, the only thing we can see are either the Earth being engulfed in a supernova (due to light-time travel) or as atoms engaging in quantum mechanics. Schrodinger's wave function, which addresses the probability of x event in an atomic particle, can be interpreted as an attempts to dissect on whether our atoms and quarks --- and thus our bodies and the universe --- are truly predeterministic or not.

At the end of the day, it's really about how we apply such knowledge, and what stance we should adopt. And for our sanity, we choose that we are free agents. Nobody wants to feel like they have no control over their lives.

If you could transcend the illusion of free will you would be enlightened.

 

[Lefty Rankin]

Someone doesn't know about Schrodinger.

More like somebody doesn't care about it.

 

[BrahminBoss]

you cannot separate the individual from the rest of the universe

I agree with the rest of what you said, but this seems unfounded. We can seperate the individual from the rest of the universe , if by individual you mean the physical organism. If youre referring to the conscious self, then even then it is not exactly clear how it isn't metaphysically different from the rest. We in fact have many biological processes that suggest that operate inversely, anti entropic processes in the organism have been well known albeit not greatly publicised. Im of course speaking from a cartesian persepctive, as the term free will requires a cartesian worldview

You could say the universe has a degree of free will but not the individual.

Speaking of Free will without positing an agent seems meaningless