MUSLIM-ONLY THREAD: Aisha wasn't 9 years old.

[Michael Myers]

@Fiqh I think I'm done here. This guy is nothing but a clown running rampant. He doesn't believe in Hadith because there exists a hadith where a Tabi3i (I doubt he knows what a tab3i even is JFL) saw a group of monkeys stoning an other monkey JFL. He has failed to explain why that hadith is problamatic.

What? Monkey-stoning hadith?

 

[Fiqh]

@Fiqh I think I'm done here. This guy is nothing but a clown running rampant. He doesn't believe in Hadith because there exists a hadith where a Tabi3i (I doubt he knows what a tab3i even is JFL) saw a group of monkeys stoning an other monkey JFL. He has failed to explain why that hadith is problamatic. Because he has absolutely no response, he has decided to ignore me because he knows he is ignorant.

To be honest, such ignorance astounds me. For one, who has no foundations or knowledge on the religion to state that he "rejects ahadeeth" is beyond me. You cannot claim to be a Muslim whilst saying such things, my signature literally speaks of such people.

Jazakallahu khair akhi.

 

[moggathon]

[URL

 

[Greycel Slayer]

To be honest, such ignorance astounds me. For one, who has no foundations or knowledge on the religion to state that he "rejects ahadeeth" is beyond me. You cannot claim to be a Muslim whilst saying such things, my signature literally speaks of such people.

Jazakallahu khair akhi.

"I don't believe in hadith because I don't like a hadith al maqtu"

 

[Michael Myers]

To be honest, such ignorance astounds me. For one, who has no foundations or knowledge on the religion to state that he "rejects ahadeeth" is beyond me. You cannot claim to be a Muslim whilst saying such things, my signature literally speaks of such people.

Jazakallahu khair akhi.

So blindly accepting every hadith as 100% accurate is not astoundingly ignorant? Lol. You're why the muzzie community is so problematic. Never doing any research, only accepting whatever your imam tells you. Another reason why I don't befriend people like you in real life. People like you are narrow-minded.

 

[Fiqh]

So blindly accepting every hadith as 100% accurate is not astoundingly ignorant? Lol. You're why the muzzie community is so problematic. Never doing any research, only accepting whatever your imam tells you. Another reason why I don't befriend people like you in real life. People like you are narrow-minded.

You are discussing matters that are beyond your scope. Do you even pray your five prayers? Are you not a porn addict and do you not justify the act of masturbation? Why are you attempting to discuss such matters when you cannot even follow the pillars of Islam?

Additionally, your profile picture is of the cartoon also known as Pokemon!

It is not permissible to watch this show because it contains serious matters that are contrary to Islamic teaching, including the following:

It is based on the corrupt, atheist, Darwinian theory that is known as the theory of evolution, and speaks of the evolution of different kinds of creatures from lower forms to higher forms that are more powerful and intelligent. We have previously explained that this theory is false and is contrary to the teachings of Islam.

I really dislike the use of ad-hominem but I believe it is appropriate here.

I believe you do not even know what the science of hadeeth is, and its reliability.

On the contrary, you and your ilk are the problem. Keep on cooming

 

[Greycel Slayer]

So blindly accepting every hadith as 100% accurate is not astoundingly ignorant? Lol. You're why the muzzie community is so problematic. Never doing any research, only accepting whatever your imam tells you. Another reason why I don't befriend people like you in real life. People like you are narrow-minded.

YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT AKHI. If you do not wish to simply go by what an Imam tells you. DO THE WORK HE HAS DONE. Go to an Islamic Country, study deen for TWELVE WHOLE YEARS. Go through the rigid qualifications that allow you to understand hadith in their PROPER CONTEXT and then you have the right to say anything about hadith. BUT if you don't do this, then please acknowledge the work a qualified sheikh has done.

He is handing you decades of knowledges on a silver platter yet you show such behavior. Imagine you studied decades to become a doctor and some karen foid walks in and tells you that you don't know nothing JFL. You are lucky that our sheikhs actually care about us because I would Just let her DIE at that point.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

In fact I encourage you to do your research but do PROPER RESEARCH. What is that research? Going to a qualified institution, learning from a qualified teacher whose sanad goes all the way back to the prophet. THAT is PROPER research. You browsing reddit is NOT research.

 

[Michael Myers]

You are discussing matters that are beyond your scope. Do you even pray your five prayers? Are you not a porn addict and do you not justify the act of masturbation? Why are you attempting to discuss such matters when you cannot even follow the pillars of Islam?

Additionally, your profile picture is of the cartoon also known as Pokemon!


I really dislike the use of ad-hominem but I believe it is appropriate here.

I believe you do not even know what the science of hadeeth is, and its reliability.

On the contrary, you and your ilk are the problem. Keep on cooming

You sound upset. Typical salafist cuck.

 

[Fiqh]

You sound upset. Typical salafist cuck.

You should be more concerned that you do not even pray your five prayers.

 

[Michael Myers]

YOU ARE COMPLETELY RIGHT AKHI. If you do not wish to simply go by what an Imam tells you. DO THE WORK HE HAS DONE. Go to an Islamic Country, study deen for TWELVE WHOLE YEARS. Go through the rigid qualifications that allow you to understand hadith in their PROPER CONTEXT and then you have the right to say anything about hadith. BUT if you don't do this, then please acknowledge the work a qualified sheikh has done.

He is handing you decades of knowledges on a silver platter yet you show such behavior. Imagine you studied decades to become a doctor and some karen foid walks in and tells you that you don't know nothing JFL. You are lucky that our sheikhs actually care about us because I would Just let her DIE at that point.

Why are muzzies so narrow-minded? Learn to accept that you’re not right simply because just because you think you are.

 

[Michael Myers]

You should be more concerned that you do not even pray your five prayers.

You try to act like you are a good muzzie, yet you’re on a forum where there’s nsfw content and other fitna. Lol at you. Pathetic salafist moment.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

Why are muzzies so narrow-minded? Learn to accept that you’re not right simply because just because you think you are.

I think you are the one who is being narrow minded here. I completely agreed with you on the fact that we should do our research but you seem to be upset when I mentioned what true research looks like. So I really believe you should be in full agreement with me because I'm advocating for proper research under qualified teachers.

When have you seen a doctor become a professional by reading reddit, quora.com, watching lectures on tiktok and youtube?

 

[Michael Myers]

I think you are the one who is being narrow minded here. I completely agreed with you on the fact that we should do our research but you seem to be upset when I mentioned what true research looks like.

You spent hours arguing with someone just because he doesn’t hold the same beliefs as you. The only ones being narrow-minded are Fiqh and you.

 

[Fiqh]

You try to act like you are a good muzzie, yet you’re on a forum where there’s nsfw content and other fitna. Lol at you. Pathetic salafist moment.

You aren't wrong on that part, I've talked to an old user about this too.

Insha'Allah I'll bookmark all the useful info and leave.

 

[moggathon]

I noticed Muslims always like to adjust everything so they will sound like they are the peaceful ones. You counter them with their own holy book and they will always have another lame excuse

the same reason they try to say aisha was older because they get criticism from it. if everyone was like yep 9 is fine they would just straight up say shes 9. it literally says in the Quran that you can lie to your enemies

 

[Greycel Slayer]

You spent hours arguing with someone just because he doesn’t hold the same beliefs as you. The only ones being narrow-minded are Fiqh and you.

The beliefs he holds go against the teachings of ahlul sunnah. This is a serious matter not a game. I've been using the doctor analogy in hopes that it becomes easier for me to tell you my true intentions. So I will use it again here

If there is a surgical procedure that's supposed to be done a certain way and some layman rookie idiot comes along who has never stepped foot in the surgery room and now he is ordering everyone to do completely random things. Would you sit around and let him fuck everything up or would you try telling him what the actual procedure is?

 

[Greycel Slayer]

I really hope my analogies are getting through to you. You are someone I respect so I'm trying my best to help you understand.

 

[moggathon]

 

[moggathon]

 

[Michael Myers]

You aren't wrong on that part, I've talked to an old user about this too.

The beliefs he holds go against the teachings of ahlul sunnah. This is a serious matter not a game. I've been using the doctor analogy in hopes that it becomes easier for me to tell you my true intentions. So I will use it again here

If there is a surgical procedure that's supposed to be done a certain way and some layman rookie idiot comes along who has never stepped foot in the surgery room and now he is ordering everyone to do completely random things. Would you sit around and let him fuck everything up or would you try telling him what the actual procedure is?

I just don’t think hadiths (word of man) can ever be considered to be on the same level as the Qur’an (word of God). Mankind is prone to error and even hadiths can be wrong. Just because a group of people have the same information, doesn’t mean they’re right. Only the hadiths that make sense should be accepted. The hadiths where we are supposed to believe our prophet married a literal child does not make sense in any way, shape or form. I completely am with @almostchadlite on this one. It’s also why I even like Shi’as more than I do Sunnis, despite being from a Sunni household, because at least they know better than to believe our prophet would marry a prepubescent child.

 

[Deleted member 38248]

And anyone who defends this view is a pedophile. It doesn't matter if he's an imam or a scholar.

Inb4 "not a word ". This thread is for muslims only.

Tagging Muslims and ex-Muslims
@SecularIslamist
@BearBoy
@Birdcell
@Gengar
@Xangsane
@human304
@RAMU KAKA
@OGJBSLAYER
@TsarTsar444
@wsada

Let's have a civilized discussion.

---

First let us understand that there was no proper historian at the time of the Prophet and no one till 80-90 years later. All the history that we know today got transferred through zubaani riwayaat (word of mouth).
The problem with the present day Islamic law is that most of it is not based on the spirit of the Quran. This is because of the belief of Muslim theologians (particularly the Salafi ideologues, commonly known as the Wahabis) that hadiths have an overriding effect on the Quran.
Ibn Khaldoon, one of the greatest historians of his era, explained the correct principle in his Muqaddamah (Preface) that — whenever you hear a story, try to evaluate it on the basis of rationale and reason before considering it authentic.
The problem is, many people start believing in stories without proper investigation and stubbornly refuse to accept knowledge and reason based arguements.

The Marriage of Ai'sha
In matters of historical incidents, Ibn Khaldoon rightly points out that the real thing is — “their possibility of taking place.” They cannot merely be accepted on the basis that their chain of narration contains — such and such a person and that it has been narrated through several chains.
It is an absurd statement that only girls of younger age, especially the ones who haven’t reached puberty play with dolls. Saying that, there are some logical questions that arise which need to be answered first in order to validate the age mentioned in such narrations.
To begin with, I think it is the responsibility of all those who believe that marrying a girl as young as nine years old was an accepted norm of the Arab culture, to provide at least a few examples to substantiate their point of view. I have not yet been able to find a single reliable instance in the books of Arab history where a girl as young as nine years old was given away in marriage. Unless such examples are given, we do not have any reasonable grounds to believe that it really was an accepted norm.
In my opinion, the age of Hz. Aisha has been grossly misreported in the narratives of the incident. Not only that, I think that the narratives reporting this event are not only highly unreliable but also that on the basis of other historical data, the event reported, is quite an unlikely happening.
Events leading to the marriage...
The prophet had become alone after the death of his beloved wife, Khadijah. One of female companions of the Prophet, Khawla bint Hakim encountered Muhammad on the streets and said,

The prophet asked if she had any such woman in notice. Khawla replied in the affirmative and said yes. There are two one is unmarried (Ai'sha bint Abu bakr) and the other is a widowed woman of 53 (Sawda bint Zama).
Do you think Khawla, in all her senses can offer a child of mere 6 years for marriage?? Does reason comprehend such a thing?
A martial bond is not only needed to satisfy one’s sexual needs, but also for companionship and sharing responsibilities. If this suggestion was given with sanity prevailing, the question which arises is: which of these needs can be fulfilled by a six year old girl?

• Could sexual relations be established with her?
• Could the companionship of a wife be available through her?
• Could she have been able to look after kids?
• Could she have looked after household affairs?

Such an idea is not acceptable to the person who has the knowledge and reason to see matters clearly. The fact is, Aisha was old enough to get married and a marriage proposal was already accepted from a family — Jubayr ibn Mut'im was engaged to Aisha before the Prophet’s proposal. This arrangement was cancelled by mutual consent and Abu Bakr wished to accept Muhammad's proposal for Aisha, while Jubayr's parents did not want him to be influenced into becoming a Muslim.
In the booklet Prophet of Islam, which was later incorporated in 1948 as the first chapter of his book Living Thoughts of the Prophet Muhammad, Moulana Muhammad Ali writes a lengthy footnote as follows:

If she was 6 years old at the time of her marriage with the prophet, then it would make her 3 or 4 years old when she was engaged with Jubayr!!
In a society without a birth registry and where people did not celebrate birthdays, most people estimated their own age and that of others. Aisha would have been no different. What's more, Aisha had already been engaged to someone else before she married Muhammad, suggesting she had already been mature enough by the standards of her society to consider marriage for a while.
Khawla had suggested her name in marriage after great deliberation. Believing in Aisha’s abiity to handle the Prophet's household.
Those who manipulate her story to justify the abuse of young girls, and those who manipulate it in order to depict Islam as a religion that legitimises such abuse have more in common than they think. Both demonstrate a disregard for what we know about the times in which Muhammad lived, and for the affirmation of female autonomy which her story illustrates.

---

Hisham bin Urwah
Hisham bin Urwah is the main narrator of this hadith. His life is divided into two periods: in 131A.H - the Madani period ended, and the Iraqi period started, Hisham was 71 years old during this time. Hafiz Zehbi has spoken about Hisham’s loss of memory in his later (Iraqi) period. His students in Madina, Imam Malik and Imam Abu Hanifah, do not mention this hadith. Imam Malik and the people of Madina even criticised Hisham for his ubreliable Iraqi Hadiths.
All the narrators of this hadith are Iraqis who had heard it from Hisham. Allameh Kandhulvi says that the words spoken in connection with Hz. Aisha’s age were — “tissa ashara”, meaning 19, when Hisham only heard (or remembered), tissa, meaning nine.
Historian Ibn Ishaq in his Sirat Rasulallah has given a list of the people who accepted Islam in the first year of the proclamation of Islam, in which Hz Aisha’s name is mentioned as Abu Bakr’s “little daughter Aisha”. If we were to accept Hisham’s calculations, Aisha was not even born at that time.

---

Recent studies into the matter have established beyond doubt that Aisha was a young woman of 21 when she moved into the Prophet's house. Muhammad himself married off his daughters Fatima at 21 and Ruquiyya at 23. Besides, Abu Bakr, Aisha’s father, married off his eldest daughter Asma at the age of 26. Aisha was about 18 years old at migration and 21 when she moved into the Prophet’s house. The Ahaadith which reports her age to be eight or nine years at the time of marriage holds no truth whatsoever.
How did I derive these conclusions?
By examining the work done by Javed Ahmed Ghamidi and his Al-Mawrid Institute
[1]
. As opposed to accepting whatever has been passed on to us, with the help of Javed Ghamidi's extensive work on the subject, I have been able to cross-examine several such narrations.

What are hadeeth in the first place?
The ahadeeth (plural) are narratives which record the words, deeds and tacit approvals of the Prophet Muhammad. They are mostly akhbar-i ahad (isolate reports). It is absolutely evident that they do not add to the contents of religion stated in the Quran. In technical terms, they do not add any article of faith or any deed to religion. This is also a reality that the Hadith literature is the largest and most important source which records the biography, history and the life of the Prophet.
We will first have a look at the principles on the basis of which a Hadith is accepted or rejected.

• The Chain of Narration of Hadith -

It is the chain of narration of a narrative which makes it a Hadith that can be attributed to the Prophet (sws). In addition to any hidden flaws in the chain of narration of a hadith, the trustworthiness of the narrators, their memory and the contemporaneousness of the narrators are the three standards which should be kept in consideration.

• Text of a Hadith -

After investigating the chain of narration of a hadith, the second thing which requires investigation is the text of a hadith. Although scholars of Hadith have spent a greater part of their life in this research. There are natural flaws which still exist in the narration of a Hadith. Therefore, it is required that the following two things must always remain in consideration while investigating the text of a Hadith:

• Nothing in it should be against the Quran
• 2. Nothing in it should be against established facts derived from knowledge and reason.

In Islam, the Quran is the meezan (the scale of truth) and the furqan (the distinguisher between truth and falsehood). Thus no further explanation is required of the fact that if anything is against the Quran, then it must stand rejected.
Established facts derived from knowledge and reason also have the same status in this regard. Those who oppose these are regarded by it as people who follow their base desires.

---

Edit 1: I have been asked why are muslims is in such disagreement. And also if my answer is a mere logical justification.
For the differences, they will always be there (As with every community). The ideology of ibn Kathir differs greatly from Waheeduddin Khan; Tahir ul Qadri differs greatly from Jamal al din Afghani; ibn Taymiyyah differs greatly from Javed Ghamidi and so on.
These differences will not cease to exist. Saying that, the majority of ‘orthodox’ muslims hold on to a more ‘rigid/blind faith’ type of Islam while the one's in relative minority adhere to cross checking and asking questions (Afghani, Abduh, Waheeduddin Khan, Javed Ghamidi, G.A Parvez etc).
Its quite natural that any explanation based on cross checking and research would be sneered upon by non- muslims as they have been accustomed to the explanations given by the Islamic orthodoxy.
My suggestion — if it appeals to your reason, you can accept it. If you feel it's a lousy justification, you are free to disagree. I have no intention of preaching religion or parroting about the greatness of the prophet.

TLDR ur a nonce

 

[Greycel Slayer]

I just don’t think hadiths (word of man) can ever be considered to be on the same level as the Qur’an (word of God). Mankind is prone to error and even hadiths can be wrong. Just because a group of people have the same information, doesn’t mean they’re right. Only the hadiths that make sense should be accepted. The hadiths where we are supposed to believe our prophet married a literal child does not make sense in any way, shape or form. I completely am with @almostchadlite on this one. It’s also why I even like Shi’as more than I do Sunnis, despite being from a Sunni household, because at least they know better.

Brother do you know how a hadith is collected and the complex process it goes through to recieve its grading? If you knew what is requried for a hadith to become sahih, you would be blown away by its complexity. It's no joke.

Hadith is not merely: "X ordered to do Y so now we do Y"

that is NOT what a hadith is.

 

[yandex99]

blud was in his 50s and married her at 6,blud consumated the marriage when she was 9,according to aishas testimony.

 

[moggathon]

TLDR ur a nonce

tbh lets just hijack and ruin this thread

 

[Michael Myers]

Brother do you know how a hadith is collected? If you knew what is requried for a hadith to become sahih, you would be blown away by its complexity. It's no joke.

Hadith is not merely: "X ordered to do Y so now we do Y"

that is NOT what a hadith is.

Yes, I know what a hadith is. Multiple sources are required. HOWEVER, these sources are people, not divine beings such as angels. People are prone to error so there are going to be mistakes even when we think there are none.

 

[moggathon]

 

[moggathon]

Yes, I know what a hadith is. Multiple sources are required. HOWEVER, these sources are people, not divine beings such as angels. People are prone to error so there are going to be mistakes even when we think there are none.

you changed your name???

 

[Michael Myers]

you changed your name???

Yes bhai. You dig? Most don’t.

 

[moggathon]

Yes bhai. You dig? Most don’t.

if it makes you happy bhaii go for it.

 

[Shogun]

it literally says in the Quran that you can lie to your enemies

what sura ?

 

[moggathon]

what sura ?

in war i mean but they consider coming here war they hate us for iraq ,Afghanistan and syria and now palestine they want to convert as many white as possible. the law of taqiyya it means they can lay their hand on the quaran and lie. so the concept that they dont want to hurt us and live peacefully cannot be trusted.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

Yes, I know what a hadith is. Multiple sources are required. HOWEVER, these sources are people, not divine beings such as angels. People are prone to error so there are going to be mistakes even when we think there are none.

No brother, you don't understand. I'll explain it briefly. For a hadith to be Maqbul, meaning accepted and to attain the status of sahih lizatihi, it has to go through the following:

1) A matn (text of hadith) whose narrators are Adil - The narrators are not sinners, and neither do they engage in any shameless or disgraeful acts.

2) They have perfectly sound memories. - Meaning they have extremey sharp memories and they do not forget

3) The chain of narrators is muttasil (continuous) - Meaning there is no gap in between the narrators. It goes smoothly. For example if I heard something from my grandfather and he heard it from his uncle and he heard it from the prophet, I have that FULL CHAIN. Including the names and the entire biographies of all these individuals who are present in the sanad.

4) The hadith is not Mu'allal, meaning it has no hidden defects. This means that if there is even THE SLIGHTEST OF DEFECTS, it doesn't matter if it fulfills all conditions, it is rendered weak.

5) The hadith isn't shadh - meaning that it's narrator is reliable but he contradicts someone who is even MORE reliable

If you have a hadith that meets all these qualification, it is considered sahih lizatihi. If HUNDREDS OF people in EVERY ERA narrate the same thing, it's considered mutawatir.

If hundreds and thousands of people in every single generation narrate the same exact matn, with different sanads, exact wording, all meeting the criteria I have mentioned above, only a fool wouldn't believe that hadith. Only an ignorant fool. It is as realiable as the QURAN itself and no sahih hadith contradicts the Quran for you information. There is not a single sahih hadith that contradicts the quran.

Yes, there can be hadith that SEEM TO CONTRADICT but that contradiction is resolvable. That is called Muktaliful Hadith. To laymen, it looks like those hadith contradict but they are not ACTUALLY contradictory because the precived contradiction is EASILY resolvable.

It took a lot of time to write this, because I don't believe in copy and pasting from the internet. I hope you read it and ask question if you are sincere instead of dismissing it.

@Fiqh Lmk if there are any mistakes here as I wrote it based off of my memory JFL

 

[Greycel Slayer]

the same reason they try to say aisha was older because they get criticism from it. if everyone was like yep 9 is fine they would just straight up say shes 9. it literally says in the Quran that you can lie to your enemies

Provide verses and sources for every claim you make, no matter how minor. Otherwise you are a coping liar who is launching crusades JFL

 

[moggathon]

Provide verses and sources for every claim you make, no matter how minor. Otherwise you are a coping liar who is launching crusades JFL

crusades?

 

[Data]

Dnr lol

 

[NordicLeonhard]

Muslim only so no one can prove you wrong

 

[Greycel Slayer]

crusades?

Yes, the christians have a launched a crusade against our brothers in Palestine by helping the Jews and supplying them with weaponry.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

Muslim only so no one can prove you wrong

No, muslim only because others are too ignorant to possess any knowledge regarding the subject and he wishes for it to be a troll-free conversation. This is not a comparative religion post, it's about a topic within Islam and a discussion about a historic event.

 

[NordicLeonhard]

No, muslim only because others are too ignorant to possess any knowledge regarding the subject and he wishes for it to be a troll-free conversation. This is not a comparative religion post, it's about a topic within Islam and a discussion about a historic event.

So you want your threads to be a muslim circle jerk

 

[Michael Myers]

No brother, you don't understand. I'll explain it briefly. For a hadith to be Maqbul, meaning accepted and to attain the status of sahih lizatihi, it has to go through the following:

1) A matn (text of hadith) whose narrators are Adil - The narrators are not sinners, and neither do they engage in any shameless or disgraeful actors.

2) They have perfectly sound memories. - Meaning they have extremey sharp memories and they do not forget

3) The chain of narrators is muttasil (continuous) - Meaning there is no gap in between the narrators. It goes smoothly. For example if I heard something from my grandfather and he heard it from his uncle and he heard it from the prophet, I have that FULL CHAIN. Including the names and the entire biographies of all these individuals who are present in the sanad.

4) The hadith is not Mu'allal, meaning it has no hidden defects. This means that if there is even THE SLIGHTEST OF DEFECTS, it doesn't matter if it fulfills all conditions, it is rendered weak.

5) The hadith isn't shadh - meaning that it's narrator is reliable but he contradicts someone who is even MORE reliable

If you have a hadith that meets all these qualification, it is considered sahih lizatihi. If HUNDREDS OF people in EVERY ERA narrate the same thing, it's considered mutawatir.

If hundreds and thousands of people in every single generation narrate the same exact matn, with different sanads, exact wording, all meeting the criteria I have mentioned above, only a fool wouldn't believe that hadith. Only an ignorant fool. It is as realiable as the QURAN itself and no sahih hadith contradicts the Quran for you information. There is not a single sahih hadith that contradicts the quran.

Yes, there can be hadith that SEEM TO CONTRADICT but that contradiction is resolvable. That is called Muktaliful Hadith. To laymen, it looks like those hadith contradict but they are not ACTUALLY contradictory because the precived contradiction is resolvable.

It took a lot of time to write this, because I don't believe in copy and pasting from the internet. I hope you read it and ask question if you are sincere instead of dismissing it.

@Fiqh Lmk if there are any mistakes here as I wrote it based off of my memory JFL

First of all, yes, I read everything because you put effort into this. The least I can do is read it.

Having said that, I disagree with the idea that it can be considered as reliable from the Qur’an. In fact, I find it quite blasphemous, to be frank. Here’s why.

They come from two completely different sources. The Qur’an comes directly from God. Hadiths come from people.

How can you compare the two and say they are both just as reliable? Clearly the Qur’an is on a level that hadiths never will be because of the inferior source (mankind).

Therefore, I find the comparison to be in quite a bad taste. Nonetheless, I liked your post because of the effort.

Having said that, like @almostchadlite, I don’t reject every hadith. I look at what makes sense.

The hadiths I reject are not religious in nature. Aisha’s age is not a religious aspect. It is a social aspect.

Therefore I tend to reject social hadiths. I won’t ever be convinced that my dear prophet married a child. If you try to convince me of such a thing, then I kindly request you not to do that. As my belief will never be challenged.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

So you want your threads to be a muslim circle jerk

If you have real knowledge about the subject and aren't here to interrupt our academic discussion by putting you ignorance at display for the entire world to see, you are free to be here.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

First of all, yes, I read everything because you put effort into this. The least I can do is read it.

Having said that, I disagree with the idea that it can be considered as reliable from the Qur’an. In fact, I find it quite blasphemous, to be frank. Here’s why.

They come from two completely different sources. The Qur’an comes directly from God. Hadiths come from people.

How can you compare the two and say they are both just as reliable? Clearly the Qur’an is on a level that hadiths never will be because of the inferior source (mankind).

Therefore, I find the comparison to be in quite a bad taste. Nonetheless, I liked your post because of the effort.

Having said that, like @almostchadlite, I don’t reject every hadith. I look at what makes sense.

The hadiths I reject are not religious in nature. Aisha’s age is not a religious aspect. It is a social aspect.

Therefore I tend to reject social hadiths. I won’t ever be convinced that my dear prophet married a child. If you try to convince me of such a thing, then I kindly request you not to do that. As my belief will never be challenged.

Look, even SCHOLARS REJECT MAJORITY of the hadith. Yes, even scholars reject majority of the hadith. Not every hadith is given importance. It's the Sahih and mutawatir hadith that are fully reliable.

BUT they have a system of knowing what hadith are reliable and what are not. I'm simply requesting you to adopt the scholarly way of rejecting and accepting hadith. Other than that, we are on the SAME PAGE.

 

[moggathon]

Yes, the christians have a launched a crusade against our brothers in Palestine by helping the Jews and supplying them with weaponry.

you think christians have anything to do with this jfl? im not christian and support the destruction of both parties

 

[Greycel Slayer]

you think christians have anything to do with this jfl? im not christian and support the destruction of both parties

Who knows. They'll help the jews then stab them in the back when the objective is reached JFL

 

[Michael Myers]

Look, even SCHOLARS REJECT MAJORITY of the hadith. Yes, even scholars reject majority of the hadith. Not every hadith is given importance. It's the Sahih and mutawatir hadith that are fully reliable.

BUT they have a system of knowing what hadith are reliable and what are not. I'm simply requesting you to adopt the scholarly way of rejecting and accepting hadith. Other than that, we are on the SAME PAGE.

So you are not saying I should accept hadiths regarding aishas age?

 

[moggathon]

Who knows. They'll help the jews then stab them in the back when the objective is reached JFL

just like muslims have done to europeans

 

[Greycel Slayer]

So you are not saying I should accept hadiths regarding aishas age?

You should accept those hadith because there is an entire system that has been developed and is SOLELY responsible for determining what hadith are reliable and what hadith are fabricated. The part where you said that you accept some hadith but reject others. It is completely fine, even scholars do that. BUT The only difference between them and you is that they follow the procedure that has been set in place and you go by your THINKING. What you are doing is attempting to solve a rubix cube WITHOUT THE FORMULA and by your own thinking. Whereas, the scholars solve the rubix cube USING THE FORMULA. Just like there is an algebraic approach to solving every single equation, there is a scholarly approach to determining the reliablity of every single hadith.


Now, It is not a requirement for you to accept the Hadith regarding the age of Ayesha to be Muslim. You can be muslim and not believe that Hadith. However, Is that hadith completely reliable, meaning that Ayesha REALLY DID say that? Yes, it 100% completely reliable without a doubt.

Is that hadith completely TRUE, meaning that Ayesha truly was nine and she didn't make a mistake in her age? Yes, the hadith is most likely completely true. You can argue that ayesha forgot her age all you want, at the end of the day there is an almost 100% chance that ayesha ra was truly that age.

By the way, this is something that Ayesha HERSELF said. Which is why it's incredibly hard to argue against it.

 

[Greycel Slayer]

@Gengar You are free to keep questioning me about this subject and I'll try my best to answer. Islam is not based on emotions, blind faith, or one's whims after all.

 

[0hMan]

The primary Islamic sources, notably Sahih Bukhari and Sahih Muslim, consistently mention that Aisha was six years old at her marriage and nine at the time of its consummation. These Hadiths are regarded as highly authentic within mainstream Islamic scholarship and form a critical basis for historical understanding in Islam.

The consensus among classical Islamic scholars also supports this interpretation. For centuries, the majority view has been consistent with Aisha being nine years old at the time of her marriage's consummation. This longstanding scholarly consensus cannot be overlooked easily.

While I acknowledge the existence of modern scholarship that revisits these narratives, such reinterpretations face the challenge of reconciling with established scholarship and primary sources, which have been the cornerstone of Islamic teaching and history.

In historical analysis, the objective should be to understand historical events within their own context, rather than projecting modern norms onto past societies. Based on these considerations, the predominant historical and religious sources within Islam support the traditional understanding of Aisha's age.

In conclusion, while there are many viewpoints and interpretations, the weight of historical evidence and scholarly consensus leans towards the traditional narrative regarding Aisha's age at the time of her marriage.

Hadiths aren't the best with counting.

Example:

According to Ibn Abbas (ra) in Bukhari 3851:

Allah's Messenger ﷺ was inspired Divinely at the age of forty. Then he stayed in Mecca for thirteen years, and then was ordered to migrate, and he migrated to Medina and stayed there for ten years and then died.

According to Ibn Abi Abdur-Rahman in Bukhari 3547:

Divine Inspiration was revealed to him when he was forty years old. He stayed ten years in Mecca receiving the Divine Inspiration, and stayed in Medina for ten more years.

Most muslims don't even know their own holy book. They always claim that the Quran preaches peace and that murder of any kind will get you in hell but like to ignore Sure 9 verse 5 or other parts of the Quran that tell the reader to commit murder

Probably because context matters retard? It's talking about times of war.

Inb4 "MUH CONTEXT DOESN'T MATTER HURR DURR "

Imagine you & I are having a conversation about the law.
You: "Should people be able to murder in self defense without worrying about getting arrested?"
Me: "Yes, people should be able to murder without worrying about getting arrested, but only in self defense."
Wouldn't it be silly to quote me as only saying "Yes, people should be able to murder without worrying about getting arrested"? Context matters.

I noticed Muslims always like to adjust everything so they will sound like they are the peaceful ones. You counter them with their own holy book and they will always have another lame excuse

You mix up peacefulness and being pacified. One should not hit without being hit, but it's quite silly to turn the other cheek while being hit.

Did not read a single word. Islam is a cancerous cult and will one day be exterminated. Muslimcels, brace yourselves.

Muhammed is a pedophile and is burning in hellfire

Classic Paulcuck refutation.

it literally says in the Quran that you can lie to your enemies

No? You're a retard, you know nothing. Lying is always haram, unless your need to live outweighs your need to tell the truth. And even the latter belief is only practiced by Shias.

in war i mean but they consider coming here war they hate us for iraq ,Afghanistan and syria and now palestine they want to convert as many white as possible. the law of taqiyya it means they can lay their hand on the quaran and lie. so the concept that they dont want to hurt us and live peacefully cannot be trusted.

HAHAHHAHAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

you think christians have anything to do with this jfl? im not christian and support the destruction of both parties

My suspicion of you being a shitskin Hindu is increasing by the day.

just like muslims have done to europeans

? Many high-IQ and high-positioned Europeans have reverted.