Don’t take steroids before 25

[Orc]

If you take a low dose can you still look older ?

probably, I imagine that's what guys like o'hearn are doing.

 

[ConfusedBolivian]

@ConfusedBolivian

Im doing very low dose test, not blasting steroids like crazy, also i have one of the best diets on earth so im fine

 

[SnoopDawg]

A YouTube short can't accurately capture the nuance of this, although I like vigorous steve.

There are 2 main ways steroids cause aging: through the anabolic affect on facial muscles, and the androgenic affect on... lots of features.

We need to differentiate "good aging" from bad aging too. Someone like this guy has insanely masc features which make him look older than 18 but he does not have wrinkles, perceivable hair loss, or aged skin.
If we take a babyface guy and give him a deeper voice, wide frame, big neck and shoulders, wider and sharper jaw, chin, cheekbones, etc, while still maintaining perfect hair and skin, he will inevitably look older, and this is not a bad thing.

So the relevant portion here is "bad aging".

Steroids cause this through their anabolic effect on facial muscles: think about what botox does (weakens/freezes the muscle causing wrinkles) and realize steroids, INHERENTLY, do the opposite. This side effect is partly unavoidable because although you can botox some areas to completely counter it, other areas can't (BIGGEST PROBLEM IS NASOLABIAL FOLDS), and there are muscles like the buccinator that look worse when hypertrophied. This is why steroid dosage should always be minimized even if you have no "side effects".

Steroids also cause bad aging through their androgenic effects. This is avoidable somewhat by INTELLIGENT COMPOUND AND DOSAGE CHOICE. After 18-21 (depends), it is a looksmin to run androgenic compounds or even test without fin. More androgens -> less hair, and more oil production in the skin (more acne), and you slowly get the shit bodybuilder leather skin look. Once you have reached either peak or ideal masculinization we want to MINIMIZE all androgens to look like a masculine early 20s guy forever.


Still, it is ideal to have very high pubertal androgen levels; this is how you get a bigger dick, deeper voice, and yes more masculine bone structure (face and body). During puberty, we want insanely high androgens, and once it's over, we want to lower them significantly.

The main thing Steve gets wrong here is he assumes that if you blast before 25 you will blast forever.

 

[pumpeduppecs]

Im doing very low dose test, not blasting steroids like crazy, also i have one of the best diets on earth so im fine

At that point why not just stay natty? lol if you actually have a good diet and healthy lifestyle you should be able to have good rest levels

 

[KING REIDYZ]

Bulp

 

[Deleted member 23391]

A YouTube short can't accurately capture the nuance of this, although I like vigorous steve.

There are 2 main ways steroids cause aging: through the anabolic affect on facial muscles, and the androgenic affect on... lots of features.

We need to differentiate "good aging" from bad aging too. Someone like this guy has insanely masc features which make him look older than 18 but he does not have wrinkles, perceivable hair loss, or aged skin.
If we take a babyface guy and give him a deeper voice, wide frame, big neck and shoulders, wider and sharper jaw, chin, cheekbones, etc, while still maintaining perfect hair and skin, he will inevitably look older, and this is not a bad thing.

So the relevant portion here is "bad aging".

Steroids cause this through their anabolic effect on facial muscles: think about what botox does (weakens/freezes the muscle causing wrinkles) and realize steroids, INHERENTLY, do the opposite. This side effect is partly unavoidable because although you can botox some areas to completely counter it, other areas can't (BIGGEST PROBLEM IS NASOLABIAL FOLDS), and there are muscles like the buccinator that look worse when hypertrophied. This is why steroid dosage should always be minimized even if you have no "side effects".

Steroids also cause bad aging through their androgenic effects. This is avoidable somewhat by INTELLIGENT COMPOUND AND DOSAGE CHOICE. After 18-21 (depends), it is a looksmin to run androgenic compounds or even test without fin. More androgens -> less hair, and more oil production in the skin (more acne), and you slowly get the shit bodybuilder leather skin look. Once you have reached either peak or ideal masculinization we want to MINIMIZE all androgens to look like a masculine early 20s guy forever.


Still, it is ideal to have very high pubertal androgen levels; this is how you get a bigger dick, deeper voice, and yes more masculine bone structure (face and body). During puberty, we want insanely high androgens, and once it's over, we want to lower them significantly.

The main thing Steve gets wrong here is he assumes that if you blast before 25 you will blast forever.

Great post, but I disagree that you wouldn't want to use androgenic compounds at that age, those would obviously have the most effect for masculinization (which you seem to agree with as you said it's ideal to have high pubertal androgen levels). If you can't control acne and hair loss then obviously you're fucked, but otherwise the benefits would be worth it otherwise.

It would be ideal to have supraphysiological androgen levels throughout puberty which would then drop down to normal physiological levels.

 

[SnoopDawg]

Great post, but I disagree that you wouldn't want to use androgenic compounds at that age, those would obviously have the most effect for masculinization. If you can't control acne and hair loss then obviously you're fucked, but otherwise the benefits would be worth it otherwise.

At which age? I can see how I left it ambiguous. I considered adding in a specific drug protocol based on age and "puberty milestones" but there is so much misinformation I'd rather let such permeate and let "tik tok fags" looksmin than help them. Back in 2019 this place would post helpful information but now I have no urge to contribute.

I recommend a protocol with high androgens around 16-18. I think after 21 the average person is not getting noticeable positive masculinization effects; your dick size or facial bones are not really malleable. At 18-21, I was saying it depends, use high androgens until you are not reaping the masculinization benefits and are instead aging.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

At which age? I recommend using it around 16-18. I think after 21 the average person is not getting noticeable positive masculinization effects; your dick size or facial bones are not really malleable. At 18-21, I was saying it depends, use high androgens until you are not reaping the masculinization benefits and are instead aging.

I don't know. There's not enough test subjects, and there's never going to be studies conducted on this sort of thing since it would be considered unethical. Our sample is just people like loox and some retarded teenagers on tiktok who were blasting for bodybuilding purposes and not virilization. All we can rely on is broscience, conjecture, and the limited experience of the people who have done roids at that age. We have another one who is going to take 300mg of test at 15 @MTMM

 

[Napoleon1800]

At which age? I can see how I left it ambiguous. I considered adding in a specific drug protocol based on age and "puberty milestones" but there is so much misinformation I'd rather let such permeate and let "tik tok fags" looksmin than help them. Back in 2019 this place would post helpful information but now I have no urge to contribute.

I recommend a protocol with high androgens around 16-18. I think after 21 the average person is not getting noticeable positive masculinization effects; your dick size or facial bones are not really malleable. At 18-21, I was saying it depends, use high androgens until you are not reaping the masculinization benefits and are instead aging.

So you are recommending steroid use during late puberty?

What about hgh and gh secretagogues?

 

[smoth]

@ConfusedBolivian

just "dont take steroids"

 

[Deleted member 23391]

So you are recommending steroid use during late puberty?

What about hgh and gh secretagogues?

HGH is recommended, secretagogues are a meme. They weren't a meme several years ago when fake HGH was everywhere and secretagogues were far more cost-effective, now that we are in the era of cheap lab-tested Chinese HGH it's pointless.

 

[SnoopDawg]

So you are recommending steroid use during late puberty?

I'm not generally recommending anything. If I had to choose, I would say do not use steroids at all, 99% of people will not do it right. If we make the massive assumption someone will do everything correctly, the cost-to-benefit ratio depends on the individual. The poster boy would be a tall guy whose "failo" is lacking dimorphism. Even then, there are lots of other factors.

What about hgh and gh secretagogues?

Read the studies on HGH, the key term you want is "ISS" or idiopathic short stature. Otherwise, no shit people who are deficient will see huge gains.

In "ISS" groups, they blasted a FUCK TON of pharma GH for years, iirc around ages 13-17 or something, and still barely gained a few inches.

You need a bone age scan first, obviously. If the plates are still open you don't need pharma, but you need a legit source of ugl GH and to run maybe 8-12iu/day depending on your weight and such, to have ANY impact at all assuming you are a "later" teenager. Even then, we are talking MAYBE an inch (OVER WHAT YOU WOULD NATURALLY GROW)* if you are lucky, from blasting like 10+iu for a year at 15 years of bone age. I don't know about facial growth but hands, perhaps frame, might be reasonable, but the gains will still be marginal.

You can see how GH secretagogues are going to be cope in terms of actual height impact, its like pouring a cup of water into the ocean expecting the sea level to rise.

The major misconceptions are perhaps 17+-year-olds running HGH, you will get like 0.1" gain maybe. GH secretagogues, cope for height. Dosage, do NOT go based off adults using GH for bodybuilding.. for height you need WAY more. As a natty teen you have very high GH levels so for a significant gain you need a shit ton of GH, and yes, at 12ius you will get significant side effects (in my experience).

UGL gh is still very pricey if you are a teenager. The first thing is to get a job... I recommend anything social for 2 birds 1 stone. Lots of the retards here could fix their autism by fucking a MTB coworker.

Tldr for GH/ if you can even afford it and MAYBE if you have a bone age below 16, the lower the better, run a shit ton and pray.. don't forget metformin/berberine, you need a glucose monitor, also your face is going to look like a balloon from the water retention, good luck

 

[Deleted member 23391]

I'm not generally recommending anything. If I had to choose, I would say do not use steroids at all, 99% of people will not do it right. If we make the massive assumption someone will do everything correctly, the cost-to-benefit ratio depends on the individual. The poster boy would be a tall guy whose "failo" is lacking dimorphism. Even then, there are lots of other factors.

Read the studies on HGH, the key term you want is "ISS" or idiopathic short stature. Otherwise, no shit people who are deficient will see huge gains.

In "ISS" groups, they blasted a FUCK TON of pharma GH for years, iirc around ages 13-17 or something, and still barely gained a few inches.

You need a bone age scan first, obviously. If the plates are still open you don't need pharma, but you need a legit source of ugl GH and to run maybe 8-12iu/day depending on your weight and such, to have ANY impact at all assuming you are a "later" teenager. Even then, we are talking MAYBE an inch (OVER WHAT YOU WOULD NATURALLY GROW)* if you are lucky, from blasting like 10+iu for a year at 15 years of bone age. I don't know about facial growth but hands, perhaps frame, might be reasonable, but the gains will still be marginal.

You can see how GH secretagogues are going to be cope in terms of actual height impact, its like pouring a cup of water into the ocean expecting the sea level to rise.

The major misconceptions are perhaps 17+-year-olds running HGH, you will get like 0.1" gain maybe. GH secretagogues, cope for height. Dosage, do NOT go based off adults using GH for bodybuilding.. for height you need WAY more. As a natty teen you have very high GH levels so for a significant gain you need a shit ton of GH, and yes, at 12ius you will get significant side effects (in my experience).

UGL gh is still very pricey if you are a teenager. The first thing is to get a job... I recommend anything social for 2 birds 1 stone. Lots of the retards here could fix their autism by fucking a MTB coworker.

Tldr for GH/ if you can even afford it and MAYBE if you have a bone age below 16, the lower the better, run a shit ton and pray.. don't forget metformin/berberine, you need a glucose monitor, also your face is going to look like a balloon from the water retention, good luck

The problem with berberine and metformin is that they crater IGF-1 which is counterproductive to heightmaxxing. I think it would be better to take insulin to manage the hyperglycemic effects, and this would also raise IGF-1 even further. Yes, we are getting into dangerous territory when insulin is added, but it's not like taking HGH itself is something trivial and without side effects. And of course there will be a higher chance of insulin resistance.

 

[SnoopDawg]

The problem with berberine and metformin is that they crater IGF-1 which is counterproductive to heightmaxxing. I think it would be better to take insulin to manage the hyperglycemic effects, and this would also raise IGF-1 even further. Yes, we are getting into dangerous territory when insulin is added, but it's not like taking HGH itself is something trivial and without side effects. And of course there will be a higher chance of insulin resistance.

Do we have any source on how significant the effect of berberine/metformin would be on decreasing the igf-1 gains from HGH administration?

I also thought the same that gh+insulin was a pretty 'blackpilled' course of action, but lets be real the amount of teens here who are young enough to benefit and responsible enough to not send themself to hospital... idk

 

[Napoleon1800]

I'm not generally recommending anything. If I had to choose, I would say do not use steroids at all, 99% of people will not do it right. If we make the massive assumption someone will do everything correctly, the cost-to-benefit ratio depends on the individual. The poster boy would be a tall guy whose "failo" is lacking dimorphism. Even then, there are lots of other factors.

Read the studies on HGH, the key term you want is "ISS" or idiopathic short stature. Otherwise, no shit people who are deficient will see huge gains.

In "ISS" groups, they blasted a FUCK TON of pharma GH for years, iirc around ages 13-17 or something, and still barely gained a few inches.

You need a bone age scan first, obviously. If the plates are still open you don't need pharma, but you need a legit source of ugl GH and to run maybe 8-12iu/day depending on your weight and such, to have ANY impact at all assuming you are a "later" teenager. Even then, we are talking MAYBE an inch (OVER WHAT YOU WOULD NATURALLY GROW)* if you are lucky, from blasting like 10+iu for a year at 15 years of bone age. I don't know about facial growth but hands, perhaps frame, might be reasonable, but the gains will still be marginal.

You can see how GH secretagogues are going to be cope in terms of actual height impact, its like pouring a cup of water into the ocean expecting the sea level to rise.

The major misconceptions are perhaps 17+-year-olds running HGH, you will get like 0.1" gain maybe. GH secretagogues, cope for height. Dosage, do NOT go based off adults using GH for bodybuilding.. for height you need WAY more. As a natty teen you have very high GH levels so for a significant gain you need a shit ton of GH, and yes, at 12ius you will get significant side effects (in my experience).

UGL gh is still very pricey if you are a teenager. The first thing is to get a job... I recommend anything social for 2 birds 1 stone. Lots of the retards here could fix their autism by fucking a MTB coworker.

Tldr for GH/ if you can even afford it and MAYBE if you have a bone age below 16, the lower the better, run a shit ton and pray.. don't forget metformin/berberine, you need a glucose monitor, also your face is going to look like a balloon from the water retention, good luck

@Osie
@barnmatrix
@dannydipss
@Gaygymmaxx

Thoughts?

 

[Napoleon1800]

The problem with berberine and metformin is that they crater IGF-1 which is counterproductive to heightmaxxing. I think it would be better to take insulin to manage the hyperglycemic effects, and this would also raise IGF-1 even further. Yes, we are getting into dangerous territory when insulin is added, but it's not like taking HGH itself is something trivial and without side effects. And of course there will be a higher chance of insulin resistance.

So what should one do to counter the insulin resistance effects?

Many have said just strict dieting was enough for them

 

[Napoleon1800]

I'm not generally recommending anything. If I had to choose, I would say do not use steroids at all, 99% of people will not do it right. If we make the massive assumption someone will do everything correctly, the cost-to-benefit ratio depends on the individual. The poster boy would be a tall guy whose "failo" is lacking dimorphism. Even then, there are lots of other factors.

Read the studies on HGH, the key term you want is "ISS" or idiopathic short stature. Otherwise, no shit people who are deficient will see huge gains.

In "ISS" groups, they blasted a FUCK TON of pharma GH for years, iirc around ages 13-17 or something, and still barely gained a few inches.

You need a bone age scan first, obviously. If the plates are still open you don't need pharma, but you need a legit source of ugl GH and to run maybe 8-12iu/day depending on your weight and such, to have ANY impact at all assuming you are a "later" teenager. Even then, we are talking MAYBE an inch (OVER WHAT YOU WOULD NATURALLY GROW)* if you are lucky, from blasting like 10+iu for a year at 15 years of bone age. I don't know about facial growth but hands, perhaps frame, might be reasonable, but the gains will still be marginal.

You can see how GH secretagogues are going to be cope in terms of actual height impact, its like pouring a cup of water into the ocean expecting the sea level to rise.

The major misconceptions are perhaps 17+-year-olds running HGH, you will get like 0.1" gain maybe. GH secretagogues, cope for height. Dosage, do NOT go based off adults using GH for bodybuilding.. for height you need WAY more. As a natty teen you have very high GH levels so for a significant gain you need a shit ton of GH, and yes, at 12ius you will get significant side effects (in my experience).

UGL gh is still very pricey if you are a teenager. The first thing is to get a job... I recommend anything social for 2 birds 1 stone. Lots of the retards here could fix their autism by fucking a MTB coworker.

Tldr for GH/ if you can even afford it and MAYBE if you have a bone age below 16, the lower the better, run a shit ton and pray.. don't forget metformin/berberine, you need a glucose monitor, also your face is going to look like a balloon from the water retention, good luck

What about the many users who grew from either pharma hgh, ugl hgh, peptides or secretagogues

 

[Osie]

Read the studies on HGH, the key term you want is "ISS" or idiopathic short stature. Otherwise, no shit people who are deficient will see huge gains.

In "ISS" groups, they blasted a FUCK TON of pharma GH for years, iirc around ages 13-17 or something, and still barely gained a few inches.

You need a bone age scan first, obviously. If the plates are still open you don't need pharma, but you need a legit source of ugl GH and to run maybe 8-12iu/day depending on your weight and such, to have ANY impact at all assuming you are a "later" teenager. Even then, we are talking MAYBE an inch (OVER WHAT YOU WOULD NATURALLY GROW)* if you are lucky, from blasting like 10+iu for a year at 15 years of bone age. I don't know about facial growth but hands, perhaps frame, might be reasonable, but the gains will still be marginal.

You can see how GH secretagogues are going to be cope in terms of actual height impact, its like pouring a cup of water into the ocean expecting the sea level to rise.

The major misconceptions are perhaps 17+-year-olds running HGH, you will get like 0.1" gain maybe. GH secretagogues, cope for height. Dosage, do NOT go based off adults using GH for bodybuilding.. for height you need WAY more. As a natty teen you have very high GH levels so for a significant gain you need a shit ton of GH, and yes, at 12ius you will get significant side effects (in my experience).

UGL gh is still very pricey if you are a teenager. The first thing is to get a job... I recommend anything social for 2 birds 1 stone. Lots of the retards here could fix their autism by fucking a MTB coworker.

Tldr for GH/ if you can even afford it and MAYBE if you have a bone age below 16, the lower the better, run a shit ton and pray.. don't forget metformin/berberine, you need a glucose monitor, also your face is going to look like a balloon from the water retention, good luck

First of all, we have to understand in studies that they'll always blast as much of the compound as possible to find minimum effective dosing later on. These studies didn't need to be blasting 12-20 IU's of HGH on small adolescents for them to gain 3+ inches.
Secondly, people who have growth hormone/IGF-1 deficiencies can possibly have similar results or worse results compared to ISS groups due to the fact that they are trying to treat a genetic deficiency, which means it'd in fact require higher dosages since they are practically guaranteed to respond worse cause of genetic limitations.

Thirdly, your age has no effect on whether you grow or not running pharma or UGL HGH. The only thing that matters is your bone age. So if you are 18 or 20 years old with open growth plates, you can still grow. There is no age limit on the results you can gain from HGH, only a bone age limit, so as long as your growth plates are legitimate to some extent in certain bones, you can grow.
Fourthly, your GH levels don't have much of a big factor in whether you grow or not from taking HGH, the biggest thing is how well your body converts those high GH levels into IGF-1, probably the biggest factor in increasing longitudinal bone growth that we can control.

Fifthly, at this stage, nobody should be taking pharma HGH solo. If you take AI alongside it, you will grow faster than just taking pharma HGH solo. So the only studies that matter currently for height growth for people on this forum are the ones that include AI and HGH used at the same time.
Sixth, in this study (pilot study of growth hormone administration in boys with predicted adult short stature and near-ending growth), they took teenagers aged 15.5 with a growth rate of less than 2cm every 6 months and basically closed wrist growth plates (16.5+), they still grew 6.8cm on average (meaning that many were higher) after only 11 months of dosing without AI. I feel like this overall demonstrates that considerable height growth is possibly attainable at older bone ages if the correct methodology is consistent enough. But obviously, growth will vary based on IGF-1 levels and true bone age.

 

[Osie]

You can see how GH secretagogues are going to be cope in terms of actual height impact, its like pouring a cup of water into the ocean expecting the sea level to rise.

The major misconceptions are perhaps 17+-year-olds running HGH, you will get like 0.1" gain maybe. GH secretagogues, cope for height. Dosage, do NOT go based off adults using GH for bodybuilding.. for height you need WAY more. As a natty teen you have very high GH levels so for a significant gain you need a shit ton of GH, and yes, at 12ius you will get significant side effects (in my experience).

Well, this is inaccurate to a degree in my opinion. While I do agree that you obviously won't grow as much on solely growth hormone secretagogues as compared to dosing high-quality UGL or Pharma HGH, you can still grow a fair amount on GHRPs + GHRH's dosed at 2-3x a day. There are studies that prove when they are dosed together at adequate enough doses 3x a day, you can achieve similar or even higher growth hormone peaks. The biggest issue is getting those GH peaks to convert into high IGF-1 levels and injecting anything 3x a day can be a lot to do.

 

[autistic_tendencies]

Nobody needs roids you just don’t wanna work hard enough /diet correctly !
Hahahahahha

 

[Osie]

The problem with berberine and metformin is that they crater IGF-1 which is counterproductive to heightmaxxing. I think it would be better to take insulin to manage the hyperglycemic effects, and this would also raise IGF-1 even further. Yes, we are getting into dangerous territory when insulin is added, but it's not like taking HGH itself is something trivial and without side effects. And of course there will be a higher chance of insulin resistance.

Well, dosing Insulin is very tedious in itself and should literally only be done alongside a healthcare provider after extensive bloodwork. You can die very quickly after not dosing insulin and if you want direct effects on IGF-1, you might as well dose IGF-1 or just have a diet that raises IGF-1. A large percentage of fat people have hyperinsulinemia simply through diet and lifestyle, so I'm sure it wouldn't be the hardest thing in the world to raise slightly elevated insulin through those means.

And I feel like anything that directly lowers blood sugar and insulin, will most likely crater IGF-1 as insulin is a driving factor of it. Just because there are some supplements on the market that reduce blood sugar and there is no reported reduction in IGF-1 levels doesn't mean that it actually doesn't! It just means that there hasn't been any study testing for it but I could be wrong on this one as I don't have any studies to back me up here.

 

[Osie]

At which age? I can see how I left it ambiguous. I considered adding in a specific drug protocol based on age and "puberty milestones" but there is so much misinformation I'd rather let such permeate and let "tik tok fags" looksmin than help them. Back in 2019 this place would post helpful information but now I have no urge to contribute.

I recommend a protocol with high androgens around 16-18. I think after 21 the average person is not getting noticeable positive masculinization effects; your dick size or facial bones are not really malleable. At 18-21, I was saying it depends, use high androgens until you are not reaping the masculinization benefits and are instead aging.

Well, to be honest. There is really no good time to run a protocol with high androgens in your youth years in most normal cases. It is very specific and case by case. First of all, if you want to run a high androgen stack for masculinization effects during your youth years, you'd need to be able to access a blood test to make your dosing based on your baseline levels. Next, depending on their history with MPB, they'd need to run some sort of topical anti-androgen on their hair, alongside possibly some sort of hair growth stimulant as if your hormone levels are out of whack, your hair can begin growing at a much slower pace. Moving on, that person would need to run something like Accutane or anything that heavily reduces your skin's oil production. If that teen can cover all of those bases, they'd need to be able to control their emotions or have some ability to control themselves from turning bipolar from having +1100 T levels and I'd assume similar high E2 levels as well. And even if they were run to AI, that'd exacerbate the effects of the high T and can possibly lead to gyno since the ratio between E2 and T could be crazy off, however, this is more speculation than fact. All of this for results that aren't even guaranteed aside from the hardening of facial muscles probably makes it not a worthwhile deal.

However, for people who are severely underdeveloped or hypogonadal (which I'd assume a decent amount of the adolescent users on here fit into this category), high androgens can really change their lives and they are actually likely to have physical and mental results. They are less likely to develop the side effects listed above as they are starting from such a low point and are basically castrated.

 

[KING REIDYZ]

A YouTube short can't accurately capture the nuance of this, although I like vigorous steve.

There are 2 main ways steroids cause aging: through the anabolic affect on facial muscles, and the androgenic affect on... lots of features.

We need to differentiate "good aging" from bad aging too. Someone like this guy has insanely masc features which make him look older than 18 but he does not have wrinkles, perceivable hair loss, or aged skin.
If we take a babyface guy and give him a deeper voice, wide frame, big neck and shoulders, wider and sharper jaw, chin, cheekbones, etc, while still maintaining perfect hair and skin, he will inevitably look older, and this is not a bad thing.

So the relevant portion here is "bad aging".

Steroids cause this through their anabolic effect on facial muscles: think about what botox does (weakens/freezes the muscle causing wrinkles) and realize steroids, INHERENTLY, do the opposite. This side effect is partly unavoidable because although you can botox some areas to completely counter it, other areas can't (BIGGEST PROBLEM IS NASOLABIAL FOLDS), and there are muscles like the buccinator that look worse when hypertrophied. This is why steroid dosage should always be minimized even if you have no "side effects".

Steroids also cause bad aging through their androgenic effects. This is avoidable somewhat by INTELLIGENT COMPOUND AND DOSAGE CHOICE. After 18-21 (depends), it is a looksmin to run androgenic compounds or even test without fin. More androgens -> less hair, and more oil production in the skin (more acne), and you slowly get the shit bodybuilder leather skin look. Once you have reached either peak or ideal masculinization we want to MINIMIZE all androgens to look like a masculine early 20s guy forever.


Still, it is ideal to have very high pubertal androgen levels; this is how you get a bigger dick, deeper voice, and yes more masculine bone structure (face and body). During puberty, we want insanely high androgens, and once it's over, we want to lower them significantly.

The main thing Steve gets wrong here is he assumes that if you blast before 25 you will blast forever.

Will one/two cycle age you ?

 

[KING REIDYZ]

Nobody needs roids you just don’t wanna work hard enough /diet correctly !
Hahahahahha

Forum bully mirin

 

[SnoopDawg]

First of all, we have to understand in studies that they'll always blast as much of the compound as possible to find minimum effective dosing later on.

This is not true whatsoever... "in studies they always blast as much as possible" seriously?

These studies didn't need to be blasting 12-20 IU's of HGH on small adolescents for them to gain 3+ inches.

Source on less?

Secondly, people who have growth hormone/IGF-1 deficiencies can possibly have similar results or worse results compared to ISS groups due to the fact that they are trying to treat a genetic deficiency, which means it'd in fact require higher dosages since they are practically guaranteed to respond worse cause of genetic limitations.

This is wrong. The relevant factor is not total height gain but rather total height gain minus predicted "natural" adult height. Someone taking a placebo would grow a foot from 10 to 18 or whatever, clearly irrelevant. The study you cited literally uses "HG" as the main factor.

Obviously, people with diseases might grow a total amount of inches that is lower than those who are healthy, but those with GH deficiency show a greater improvement over their predicted adult height than those with ISS, this is not even up for debate.

Thirdly, your age has no effect on whether you grow or not running pharma or UGL HGH. The only thing that matters is your bone age. So if you are 18 or 20 years old with open growth plates, you can still grow. There is no age limit on the results you can gain from HGH, only a bone age limit, so as long as your growth plates are legitimate to some extent in certain bones, you can grow.

Yes this is why I mentioned bone age repeatedly.

Fourthly, your GH levels don't have much of a big factor in whether you grow or not from taking HGH, the biggest thing is how well your body converts those high GH levels into IGF-1, probably the biggest factor in increasing longitudinal bone growth that we can control.

Yes

Fifthly, at this stage, nobody should be taking pharma HGH solo. If you take AI alongside it, you will grow faster

I am of the understanding you will actually grow slower, but for longer, and end up with a total height increase.

than just taking pharma HGH solo.

So the only studies that matter currently for height growth for people on this forum are the ones that include AI and HGH used at the same time.

Sixth, in this study (pilot study of growth hormone administration in boys with predicted adult short stature and near-ending growth), they took teenagers aged 15.5 with a growth rate of less than 2cm every 6 months and basically closed wrist growth plates (16.5+), they still grew 6.8cm on average (meaning that many were higher) after only 11 months of dosing without AI. I feel like this overall demonstrates that considerable height growth is possibly attainable at older bone ages if the correct methodology is consistent enough. But obviously, growth will vary based on IGF-1 levels and true bone age.

In this study they used .5mg/kg/wk btw, 15iu/day for a 150lb person.

This is actually fascinating if you have access to the full text. It turns out the wrist bone age scan was useless in determining height growth and the knee scan was the only relevant one. It is not over if a hand-wrist scan shows fusion.

"We found that neither hand–wrist bone age, testosterone, time interval since PGV, IGF-1 at onset of rhGH or delta IGF-1 showed any association with HI or HG "

"The lack of studies at the end of puberty reflects the belief, expressed by several studies [28], [39] and by influential reviews [13], [15], [27], that the younger the child is at the onset of rhGH administration the better is the height gain. Indeed, common sense is that if rhGH is administered close to or within puberty [5], [14], [24], the duration of the treatment will be too short to allow a significant benefit. Our findings may change this view by showing that a brief period of rhGH administration may allow a clinically significant height gain at the end of puberty. "

Yeah this is completely new to me as well. All the major studies I read expressed such.



If this study is replicable (n was only 15, and 5 of them didn't grow 'clinically' more than expected, but this seems to be due to "knee fusion") then I 100% stand corrected, the author's summary says as much.

 

[Osie]

Obviously, people with diseases might grow a total amount of inches that is lower than those who are healthy, but those with GH deficiency show a greater improvement over their predicted adult height than those with ISS, this is not even up for debate.

Well, I don't seem to really understand your response. From the studies I've read (there seems to be contention on this subject keep in kind), the growth rate response to growth hormone seems relatively similar between GHD and ISS children. However, you can be referring to something else, and I could still be wrong so I'd appreciate some clarification.


View attachment 2546528

 

[Osie]

This is not true whatsoever... "in studies they always blast as much as possible" seriously?

Source on less?

Well, to clarify, what I've noticed (not research-backed), is that in early studies that are first trying to analyze the efficacy of a compound, they tend to start off using much higher doses than what would presumably be the normal amount (Ex: in the MK677 studies on GHD children, they are using upwards of +100MG of MK677 on small children, much more than even fully grown bodybuilders take and on top of the fact that after 25MG, you normally experience more side effects than gains). Then after seeing the results of higher doses, you'll see studies coming out trying to analyze the dose-dependent effects of the compound and after that, a range can be set on what can considered effective dosing.

I don't really have a specific source on less, however, there is a pretty wide range between the dosing that can be prescribed for HGH usage as it can be anywhere from 0.16 to 0.3 mg per KG per week. Also, studies like these and others (that I am too lazy to find) show that more isn't always going to be much better for even height growth.

 

[Osie]

I am of the understanding you will actually grow slower, but for longer, and end up with a total height

You'd think that, but when you look at the studies, children tend to grow actually faster when taking AI, but I'd presume this is caused by the fact that the bone age doesn't move at all or very little. However, this could be an misinterpretation on my end as these are the graphs that most clearly show the additive effect of an AI.

 

[SnoopDawg]

Well, I don't seem to really understand your response. From the studies I've read (there seems to be contention on this subject keep in kind), the growth rate response to growth hormone seems relatively similar between GHD and ISS children. However, you can be referring to something else, and I could still be wrong so I'd appreciate some clarification.


View attachment 2546528
View attachment 2546532

I'm referring to what we can call "HG" from the study (adult height - predicted adult height), not growth rate. Someone will have a higher HG even if they grew the same amount as someone else, if their predicted height was lower. I can link something concrete when I am back to computer.

You'd think that, but when you look at the studies, children tend to grow actually faster when taking AI, but I'd presume this is caused by the fact that the bone age doesn't move at all or very little. However, this could be an misinterpretation on my end as these are the graphs that most clearly show the additive effect of an AI.





View attachment 2546576


View attachment 2546577
View attachment 2546579

I can check these out later. Seems contradictory because generally test administration (increasing estrogen) makes you grow quickly right away but not as much long-term,

 

[RoyaleWithCheese]

Steroids are a looksmin. Face is king. Muscle can be built just fine natty if you aren’t a retard.

 

[Osie]

"The lack of studies at the end of puberty reflects the belief, expressed by several studies [28], [39] and by influential reviews [13], [15], [27], that the younger the child is at the onset of rhGH administration the better is the height gain. Indeed, common sense is that if rhGH is administered close to or within puberty [5], [14], [24], the duration of the treatment will be too short to allow a significant benefit. Our findings may change this view by showing that a brief period of rhGH administration may allow a clinically significant height gain at the end of puberty. "

Yeah this is completely new to me as well. All the major studies I read expressed such.



If this study is replicable (n was only 15, and 5 of them didn't grow 'clinically' more than expected, but this seems to be due to "knee fusion") then I 100% stand corrected, the author's summary says as much.

Well, they did replicate the study but they added in anastrozole and did it with children (24) slightly younger (15.2) but with an even worse growth rate (less than 3.5cm each year) and that had adult testosterone levels. The study was very strict with its conditions, as once children reached around 169cm or grew less than 10mm in 6 months, they weren't given any more treatment.

The children treated with HGH and AI grew 8 more cm compared to the non-treated children and grew 10CM when compared to their average starting height (157.9cm - 168.5cm) in only 19 months (less than half a year!) From my knowledge, their IGF-1 levels stayed within normal limits. This also meant that the majority of these kids on HGH and AI growth rate didn't even slow down, they were just forced to stop.

0% of the children with adult levels of testosterone exhibited growth less than 3cm and they listed the biggest predictor of height is time and knee score.

 

[Deleted member 23391]

Well, they did replicate the study but they added in anastrozole and did it with children (24) slightly younger (15.2) but with an even worse growth rate (less than 3.5cm each year) and that had adult testosterone levels. The study was very strict with its conditions, as once children reached around 169cm or grew less than 10mm in 6 months, they weren't given any more treatment.

View attachment 2546591

The children treated with HGH and AI grew 8 more cm compared to the non-treated children and grew 10CM when compared to their average starting height (157.9cm - 168.5cm) in only 19 months (less than half a year!) From my knowledge, their IGF-1 levels stayed within normal limits. This also meant that the majority of these kids on HGH and AI growth rate didn't even slow down, they were just forced to stop.

View attachment 2546598
View attachment 2546601

0% of the children with adult levels of testosterone exhibited growth less than 3cm and they listed the biggest predictor of height is time and knee score.
View attachment 2546605

lmfao imagine getting put into a study group where they blast you with HGH then them cutting it once you got to 169cm (still subhuman) instead of continuing the treatment until you were done growing so that you could grow to be human, I'd probably go ER on the doctor

 

[Napoleon1800]

lmfao imagine getting put into a study group where they blast you with HGH then them cutting it once you got to 169cm (still subhuman) instead of continuing the treatment until you were done growing so that you could grow to be human, I'd probably go ER on the doctor

Manlet rage!!!!

 

[cyprian_tomaszewski]

DHT is a subhuman hormone so once puberty is done everyone should hop on fin + duta instead of roids that looksmin you

 

[KING REIDYZ]

DHT is a subhuman hormone so once puberty is done everyone should hop on fin + duta instead of roids that looksmin you

Many aren’t looksminned

 

[cyprian_tomaszewski]

Many aren’t looksminned

Youth, hair, Collagen > Muscle . Even rich attractive guys end up looksminning themselves, for example David Laid is Norwooding and has shit collagen, same with Connor Murphy. If you are trying to attract women there is no reason to take roids

 

[Deleted member 23391]

DHT is a subhuman hormone so once puberty is done everyone should hop on fin + duta instead of roids that looksmin you

There's no such thing as a "subhuman hormone", especially one you keep producing into adulthood, every hormone in the human body has a purpose. Stop listening to haircafe.

 

[KING REIDYZ]

Youth, hair, Collagen > Muscle . Even rich attractive guys end up looksminning themselves, for example David Laid is Norwooding and has shit collagen, same with Connor Murphy. If you are trying to attract women there is no reason to take roids

Not trying to attract women bro

but is one or two cycle enough to looksmin you ?

also Asian and black men have hood collagen so do they have a problem too with that ?

 

[cyprian_tomaszewski]

There's no such thing as a "subhuman hormone", especially one you keep producing into adulthood, every hormone in the human body has a purpose. Stop listening to haircafe.

It does have a purpose and is important to make your mind masculine and for sperm quality, nevertheless it fucks up your looks by aging you and norwooding you. For looks DHT is subhuman

 

[cyprian_tomaszewski]

Not trying to attract women bro

but is one or two cycle enough to looksmin you ?

also Asian and black men have hood collagen so do they have a problem too with that ?

Why do you want to do one cycle if you will just lose your muscle when you go off? Also if you are not trying to attract women then why take roids in the first place?

 

[KING REIDYZ]

Why do you want to do one cycle if you will just lose your muscle when you go off?

not necessarily

Also if you are not trying to attract women then why take roids in the first place?

To look more muscular and loving what I look at the mirror

 

[cyprian_tomaszewski]

not necessarily

To look more muscular and loving what I look at the mirror

Look at David Laid off cycle, he looks DYEL and it's the guys job to look muscular, why do you think you can retain muscle from a cycle when genetic elite post a bunch of cycles whose job is to be jacked look natty after stopping their cycles? Also you will never be satisfied if you attach your self worth to having muscles, most bodybuilders have body dysmorphia and they look far too big. I think if you have body dysmorphia and don't mind taking roids you won't stop at one cycle, it's not a good choice bro

 

[KING REIDYZ]

Look at David Laid off cycle, he looks DYEL and it's the guys job to look muscular, why do you think you can retain muscle from a cycle when genetic elite post a bunch of cycles whose job is to be jacked look natty after stopping their cycles? Also you will never be satisfied if you attach your self worth to having muscles, most bodybuilders have body dysmorphia and they look far too big. I think if you have body dysmorphia and don't mind taking roids you won't stop at one cycle, it's not a good choice bro

dont worries I have bbc genes thanks to my great grandfather

 

[Debetro]

Best age is 15-16

 

[pumpeduppecs]

dont worries I have bbc genes thanks to my great grandfather

Then you shouldn’t need steroids stop being lazy

 

[KING REIDYZ]

Then you shouldn’t need steroids stop being lazy

Joking I have black an est it not the fast twitch genetic like these west Africans

but still get the big d ,lifefuel

 

[Gaygymmaxx]

@Osie
@barnmatrix
@dannydipss
@Gaygymmaxx

Thoughts?

Just ordered 260 btc with my parents card for my cycle cuz my debit card got declined jfl

Didn't realize credit cards have a delay on coinbase fuck

I'm doing super reserved stack tho, and masculinization isn't really a concern. I'll do 150mg test with 250mcg hcg weekly, aromasin 6.25mgs per day

Then clomid post cycle

Only concern for me is hair but I have a shit ton of it so I can probably fin retroactively and midox with dermarolling for now

 

[Napoleon1800]

Just ordered 260 btc with my parents card for my cycle cuz my debit card got declined jfl

Didn't realize credit cards have a delay on coinbase fuck

I'm doing super reserved stack tho, and masculinization isn't really a concern. I'll do 150mg test with 250mcg hcg weekly, aromasin 6.25mgs per day

Then clomid post cycle

Only concern for me is hair but I have a shit ton of it so I can probably fin retroactively and midox with dermarolling for now

R u doing for physique

 

[Gaygymmaxx]

R u doing for physique

5"6.

I am half of a man, I could get to three fourths of one.

Already gymaxxed tho and yes

 

[Napoleon1800]

5"6.

I am half of a man, I could get to three fourths of one.

Already gymaxxed tho and yes

Did u say u didn't grow at all from heightmaxxing (suifuel)

Best of luck man but be careful with ur youth indicators