Facepulling PSA (gtfih)

[retard]

Fuck I was supposed to see my ortho today but they're closed for a fucking month because of COVID-19. After seeing this, I think I'm going to try to get MSE on it own without asking for any modifications and then do facepulling by myself with the Dowden appliance and the Facebow. Anyone know if I could jump straight into facepulling after MSE or would I have to wait for the suture to heal (it takes 2-4 months from what I've heard)?

If you are getting MSE don’t use the Dowden, just use the one Ronald ead showed with his MSE, they are both applying forces directly to the bone so it’s not worth the hastle to make a dowden, and you don’t want your sutures to heal, start pulling as early as you can into the treatment, what makes progress a lot slower in adults is the maturation of the sutures so you want to be pulling while they are weak

Thanks, but if you theoretically could, what direction should you apply force?

Upwards and forwards so a diagnal

 

[Deleted member 4053]

If you are getting MSE don’t use the Dowden, just use the one Ronald ead showed with his MSE, they are both applying forces directly to the bone so it’s not worth the hastle to make a dowden, and you don’t want your sutures to heal, start pulling as early as you can into the treatment, what makes progress a lot slower in adults is the maturation of the sutures so you want to be pulling while they are weak

I also don't know if I can pull off convincing them to give me a modified appliance. It seems easy in theory but they are bluepilled faggots. If I mention aesthetics at all, I have a good feeling they'll just stop listening right there. I don't know any other reason for facepulling that involves anything other than aesthetics.

 

[retard]

I also don't know if I can pull off convincing them to give me a modified appliance. It seems easy in theory but they are bluepilled faggots. If I mention aesthetics at all, I have a good feeling they'll just stop listening right there. I don't know any other reason for facepulling that involves anything other than aesthetics.

you can say you have trouble breathing when asleep and that you think it’s from recessed maxilla

 

[Deleted member 4053]

you can say you have trouble breathing when asleep and that you think it’s from recessed maxilla

I actually do and it would be solved by expanding the palate with MSE. But it's worth a shot to throw that in there, I doubt I will get far with them though. God I hate every single ortho in that office so fucking much. @Sergio-OMS are there any documented medical uses for facepulling other than for better looks?

 

[theanonymousone]

If you are getting MSE don’t use the Dowden, just use the one Ronald ead showed with his MSE, they are both applying forces directly to the bone so it’s not worth the hastle to make a dowden, and you don’t want your sutures to heal, start pulling as early as you can into the treatment, what makes progress a lot slower in adults is the maturation of the sutures so you want to be pulling while they are weak

Upwards and forwards so a diagnal

Thanks that's what I thought but I'm so worried about making things worse lol

 

[Sergio-OMS]

I actually do and it would be solved by expanding the palate with MSE. But it's worth a shot to throw that in there, I doubt I will get far with them though. God I hate every single ortho in that office so fucking much. @Sergio-OMS are there any documented medical uses for facepulling other than for better looks?

Better occlusion (bite) in cases of underbite due to maxillary retrusion

 

[Deleted member 4053]

Better occlusion (bite) in cases of underbite due to maxillary retrusion

I have an overbite of >1mm which used to be a solid 2mm before I got braces a few years ago. My maxilla is recessed by conclusion of my measurements, and that in turn keeps my mandible in a recessed position (I can jut out my lower jaw about 1cm, maybe slightly more it's nuts). If I brought up this fact to my orthodontist, I could maybe say this helps with easier chewing with my mandible. Sounds stupid but that's my best reasoning for my ortho that I can think of off the top of my head.

 

[Saen]

do u have to pull on it yourself. And are the handles visible?

 

[Deleted member 2748]

This is an informational post to anyone who is currently facepulling or is planning to facepulling, its longer but i suggest you read it if you dont want to develop an overbite and want faster results

If you are using Cope and Ropes infraoral appliance


STOP USE IMMEDIATELY, when pulling on the teeth it it causes both dento-alveolar changes, as well as maxillary changes, from an orthodontist's perspective it doesnt matter at all and that is why they frequently do use forces that mimic cope's design, HOWEVER ortho's are only concerned with getting proper occlusion and fixing the Class iii occlusion (people who get facepullers for orthodontic purposes of fixing an underbite). From the orthodontist's perspective it doesnt matter how the occlusion is fixed, either the alveolar ridge comes forward, or the maxilla comes forward doesnt matter to them; as long as the underbite is fixed they are satisfied.

However for us this is very bad, we want ONLY maxillary growth, because with that we can have our mandible come forward with the new maxillary growth
HOWEVER the lower arch its self has no inclination to follow the newly positioned upper ridge, meaning an overbite will happen if you use Cope's design due to both shifting forwards of the maxilla its self ( good) and our mandible can follow, and the forward shifting of the alveolar ridge itsself (bad) as the lower ridge will not follow and will be left behind resulting in an overbite




There are two types of facepulling, tooth borne pulling, and bone borne pulling

tooth borne is the most popularly used by ortho's and as the name implies wraps something around the teeth and pulls forward

bone borne is much more recent and is done by screwing a plate into the upper maxilla and pull forward from that. This is obviously not feasible for most people my self included.

Significant differences between the two groups were found in 8 out of 29 cephalometric variables (p < .05). Subjects in the tooth-borne facemask group had more proclination of maxillary incisors (OLp-Is, Is-SNL), increase in overjet correction, and correction in molar relationship. Subjects in the bone-anchored facemask group had less downward movement of the “A” point, less opening of the mandibular plane (SNL-ML and FH-ML), and more vertical eruption of the maxillary incisors. (https://progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40510-015-0096-7)

This study shows that even tooth anchored pulling results in MUCH LESS maxillary protraction than bone anchored systems, it increases overjet correction more than in the bone borne group. meaning that if you use the teeth as an anchor, you will get undesirable upper ridge forward shifting not done by actual maxillary protraction which is BAD, however this can be avoided by bone anchored pulling

Now the question is how how the hell do we manage to facepull if we cant anchor anything to our bone?

Luckily for us @nelson solves this problem completely with his dowden appliance. The dowden applies force directly to the maxilla its self without the need for the teeth as a medium to conduct the force. Even though bone anchored protraction involves a screw drilled into the maxilla, and this is just a palate-mold that applies force; the way it manifests in maxilla change is all the same.

It really isnt complex, if the appliance applies a force by pushing on the bone it is bone borne, which both screws and the dowden appliance does, and if it applies a force by using the teeth as an anchor then it is tooth borne, not complex like i said

The dowden completely avoids all tooth contact and ONLY applies a force to the maxilla bone its self, eliminating the subsequent dento-alveolar changes that would cause an overbite in something like Copes appliance

It doesnt stop here though the dowden MOGS EVERY ORAL APPLIANCE TO LITERAL OBLIVION. There is an asterisk with bone anchored pulling, bluepilled orthos attach both screws to the maxilla and mandible and pull the maxilla downwards to the mandible, the screw failure rate is EXTREMELY high, due to pulling downwards the screw frequently gets ripped out of the maxilla, and as a result you can only use extremely minute forces with bone anchored pulling of around 250g a side to prevent the screws from coming undone, i am personally using 800g a side using a slight edit of the dowden

Since the dowden applies an upwards force, that force cements the appliance in the palate and you can use practically unlimited force, as much as you can handle without worrying about it messing up your teeth as it goes straight to the maxilla there are no repercussions, and you do not need to worry about the screws liability like in bone anchored protraction due to the design




The dowden mogs any oral appliance in the way that it distributes force, not to mention bone anchored results in MUCH faster results, compared to tooth anchored
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5698016/ bone anchored also ensures the entire midface will be translated, while tooth anchored lets the rest of the midface out of the maxilla slack behind a little bit, when i first saw the dowden i thought cope's mogged it and i think most people thought that as well, it is extremely undervalued and now that i am more well versed in research, it is apparent that it doesnt just mog cope's it mogs literal surgical screws being drilled into the maxilla by miles

While the way the dowden applies force is ingenius, the way the force vectors work (needed 2 anchor points) isnt ideal for me so i slightly edited it so i can pull from a singular anchor point like the face bow from sandra khan that i have, premise is still the same
View attachment 310976View attachment 310977




I think this needs a pin, tons of people will not see this and are under the impression cope's is superior and it will actually just give an overbite and slower results

get off your lazy ass's and start pulling this design is cheap as fuck and incredibly effective, better than MSE anchored pulling and you wont waste months/years waiting to get it

dude can you pm me your mewing results if you've had any ? you're one of the few here who's actually dedicated to it

 

[Mr.cope]

this is the proof that facepulling works
(and does not cause overbite)

You know that these are done on kids
We can’t really guarantee that it would work for teens or adults

 

[megachad669]

Hey @retard , got discord?

 

[retard]

Hey @retard , got discord?

tiszo#8400

 

[000]

there isnt some "magical" way to distribute force, it is all just physics when it comes down to it. I am using 1.6 kg currently

either bone or tooth borne, mse and dowden apply force to bone, there is no special perk about it being screwed in, it doesnt cause the force to manifest in some more powerful way, a gram of force on the maxilla via screw is the same exact as a gram of force by just applying a pushing force to the palate by a mold

theres no guide for my remake, i think nelson is currently making a new guide on a dowden v2, id just wait for that as the current version requires scuffed headgear that pushes back on chin

Can orthodontic labs make this and if not, can I have the @nelson link to make this?

 

[retard]

Can orthodontic labs make this and if not, can I have the @nelson link to make this?

no and Nelson’s guide is outdated, you need silicone or it’s too hard for palate he might make another one in the future though

 

[000]

no and Nelson’s guide is outdated, you need silicone or it’s too hard for palate he might make another one in the future though

I’m just looking for the best appliance which yields the best results. Is this the best one?

 

[retard]

I’m just looking for the best appliance which yields the best results. Is this the best one?

no since you can’t wear it for more then 2 hours

 

[000]

no since you can’t wear it for more then 2 hours

You stated that bone-borne > tooth-borne so which is the best bone borne one I can get?

 

[retard]

You stated that bone-borne > tooth-borne so which is the best bone borne one I can get?

MSE is the only one atm

 

[000]

MSE is the only one atm

Is it possible that I can build this one with the help of @nelson? — because he made this himself and this is obviously the best .. is the reason why I can wear it for 2 hours because it applies too much force?

 

[retard]

Is it possible that I can build this one with the help of @nelson? — because he made this himself and this is obviously the best .. is the reason why I can wear it for 2 hours because it applies too much force?

he might make a guide in the future and no it’s because acrylic is too hard

 

[justadude]

who the fuck actually facepulls lmfao

 

[000]

he might make a guide in the future and no it’s because acrylic is too hard

I can just use dental silicone though

 

[000]

This is an informational post to anyone who is currently facepulling or is planning to facepulling, its longer but i suggest you read it if you dont want to develop an overbite and want faster results

If you are using Cope and Ropes infraoral appliance


STOP USE IMMEDIATELY, when pulling on the teeth it it causes both dento-alveolar changes, as well as maxillary changes, from an orthodontist's perspective it doesnt matter at all and that is why they frequently do use forces that mimic cope's design, HOWEVER ortho's are only concerned with getting proper occlusion and fixing the Class iii occlusion (people who get facepullers for orthodontic purposes of fixing an underbite). From the orthodontist's perspective it doesnt matter how the occlusion is fixed, either the alveolar ridge comes forward, or the maxilla comes forward doesnt matter to them; as long as the underbite is fixed they are satisfied.

However for us this is very bad, we want ONLY maxillary growth, because with that we can have our mandible come forward with the new maxillary growth
HOWEVER the lower arch its self has no inclination to follow the newly positioned upper ridge, meaning an overbite will happen if you use Cope's design due to both shifting forwards of the maxilla its self ( good) and our mandible can follow, and the forward shifting of the alveolar ridge itsself (bad) as the lower ridge will not follow and will be left behind resulting in an overbite




There are two types of facepulling, tooth borne pulling, and bone borne pulling

tooth borne is the most popularly used by ortho's and as the name implies wraps something around the teeth and pulls forward

bone borne is much more recent and is done by screwing a plate into the upper maxilla and pull forward from that. This is obviously not feasible for most people my self included.

Significant differences between the two groups were found in 8 out of 29 cephalometric variables (p < .05). Subjects in the tooth-borne facemask group had more proclination of maxillary incisors (OLp-Is, Is-SNL), increase in overjet correction, and correction in molar relationship. Subjects in the bone-anchored facemask group had less downward movement of the “A” point, less opening of the mandibular plane (SNL-ML and FH-ML), and more vertical eruption of the maxillary incisors. (https://progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com/articles/10.1186/s40510-015-0096-7)

This study shows that even tooth anchored pulling results in MUCH LESS maxillary protraction than bone anchored systems, it increases overjet correction more than in the bone borne group. meaning that if you use the teeth as an anchor, you will get undesirable upper ridge forward shifting not done by actual maxillary protraction which is BAD, however this can be avoided by bone anchored pulling

Now the question is how how the hell do we manage to facepull if we cant anchor anything to our bone?

Luckily for us @nelson solves this problem completely with his dowden appliance. The dowden applies force directly to the maxilla its self without the need for the teeth as a medium to conduct the force. Even though bone anchored protraction involves a screw drilled into the maxilla, and this is just a palate-mold that applies force; the way it manifests in maxilla change is all the same.

It really isnt complex, if the appliance applies a force by pushing on the bone it is bone borne, which both screws and the dowden appliance does, and if it applies a force by using the teeth as an anchor then it is tooth borne, not complex like i said

The dowden completely avoids all tooth contact and ONLY applies a force to the maxilla bone its self, eliminating the subsequent dento-alveolar changes that would cause an overbite in something like Copes appliance

It doesnt stop here though the dowden MOGS EVERY ORAL APPLIANCE TO LITERAL OBLIVION. There is an asterisk with bone anchored pulling, bluepilled orthos attach both screws to the maxilla and mandible and pull the maxilla downwards to the mandible, the screw failure rate is EXTREMELY high, due to pulling downwards the screw frequently gets ripped out of the maxilla, and as a result you can only use extremely minute forces with bone anchored pulling of around 250g a side to prevent the screws from coming undone, i am personally using 800g a side using a slight edit of the dowden

Since the dowden applies an upwards force, that force cements the appliance in the palate and you can use practically unlimited force, as much as you can handle without worrying about it messing up your teeth as it goes straight to the maxilla there are no repercussions, and you do not need to worry about the screws liability like in bone anchored protraction due to the design




The dowden mogs any oral appliance in the way that it distributes force, not to mention bone anchored results in MUCH faster results, compared to tooth anchored
https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5698016/ bone anchored also ensures the entire midface will be translated, while tooth anchored lets the rest of the midface out of the maxilla slack behind a little bit, when i first saw the dowden i thought cope's mogged it and i think most people thought that as well, it is extremely undervalued and now that i am more well versed in research, it is apparent that it doesnt just mog cope's it mogs literal surgical screws being drilled into the maxilla by miles

While the way the dowden applies force is ingenius, the way the force vectors work (needed 2 anchor points) isnt ideal for me so i slightly edited it so i can pull from a singular anchor point like the face bow from sandra khan that i have, premise is still the same
View attachment 310976View attachment 310977




I think this needs a pin, tons of people will not see this and are under the impression cope's is superior and it will actually just give an overbite and slower results

get off your lazy ass's and start pulling this design is cheap as fuck and incredibly effective, better than MSE anchored pulling and you wont waste months/years waiting to get it

But the problem is that your teeth don’t touch so the mandible will not follow.