i_love_roosters
My avi is the typpa shit I'm on rn
- Joined
- Aug 23, 2023
- Posts
- 5,400
- Reputation
- 6,597
Before I begin, I would like to say that most the Muslim guys here are actually pretty cool people. I have nothing against them personally. I only believe they're on the wrong side. In the past I was being offensive towards them which was not very Christian of me. In this post I'll try and be as respectful as possible. What I'm presenting is long but I encourage people who are into this stuff to read it in it's entirety.
Have a nice read....
Suppose we ask our Muslim friends... Why did Allah reveal the Quran in Arabic? Simple question, right? Here they'll say something like.... because Arabic is such a rich language or because Arabic is the perfect language for Allah to express his eloquence. Unfortunately for our Muslim friends the Quran tells us exactly why Allah revealed the Quran in Arabic and Allah's reasons for revealing the Quran in Arabic completely contradicts what muslim today believe about the Quran. This is why Muslim Scholars never discuss what I'm about to discuss. They don't want anyone to know what you're about to know. If you think I'm exaggerating read this until the end and explain to me how this information isn't utterly devastating to dawa.
Let's set the stage for the problem by recalling how these discussions about the Quran arise. Our Muslim friends invite us to convert to Islam and and we ask... Why should we convert to Islam? They say because it's the truth and we reply but lots of ideologies claim to be the truth, why should we believe that. Because of the Quran, they say, it's so masterfully written it must be the word of God. Now even before we open the Quran and start reading we can spot an obvious difficulty with this wonderfully written book. There are many amazing books by great authors but what in the name of common sense does all this wonderful writing have to do with whether these works are the word of God. NOTHING! But we're trying to be nice, so in spite of the absurdity of the claim we open the Quran anyway and we find the worst, most boring, most disorganized book we've ever read in our entire lives. Terrible beyond our already low expectations. So we go back to our Muslim friends and we tell them as politely as we can, the Quran is less interesting, less impressive, and less enlightening than a phone book. That's when our Muslim friends pull the ultimate Uno reverse card from the bottom of the desperation deck and they say: Well it only works in Arabic. Here we start wondering, if Islam is the religion for all people, why would the main evidence for Islam only work in one language, a language that most people do not speak, even native Arabic speakers can't understand much of the Quran because it's written in classical Arabic. But it gets worse because even classical Arabic Scholars can't understand parts of the Quran.
The Arabic scholar Gerd-R Puin, for instance, says this:
The Quran claims for itself that it is "mubeen" or clear but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims and orientalists will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the quranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Quran is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable. People fear that and since the Quran claims repeatedly to be clear, but obviously is not, as even speakers of Arabic will tell you, there is a contradiction.
The Iranian scholar Ali Dashi in his book 23 years adds:
The Quran contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries, foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verb verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number, illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no reference; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberration in the language have given scope to critics who deny the quran's eloquence.
So we're supposed to believe that the Quran is from God because of its clarity and eloquence when experts tell us that it's hopelessly unclear and not very good at all. This is where our Muslim friends jump in and tell us don't trust the experts, trust the dawa guys who say that the Quran is the most amazing book ever. Yes the dawa guys, those honest and dependable boy scouts who assured us that the Quran has been perfectly preserved but later admitted that it was all a lie. The dawa guys, those upright and credible do- goods who assured us that the Quran is filled with miraculous scientific insights but later admitted that it was all a lie. The dawa guys those compulsive liars who assure us that the Quran is supernaturally eloquent and must be from God and we just have to believe them. We just have to take their word for it. Notice, we're supposed to convert to Islam because of the supernatural eloquence of the Quran but how are we supposed to know that the Quran is supernaturally eloquent when we don't speak Arabic. What our Muslim friends are really telling us is this we either need to trust what the dawa guys say about the Quran without understanding the evidence for ourselves or we need to spend years studying classical Arabic so that we can perhaps find the evidence for ourselves someday, so we can either accept what the dawa guys say about their book without investigating or we can spend years learning another language so that we can eventually investigate the matter on our own. Why is this a problem? It's a problem because it completely contradicts the Quran and you're about to see how.
According to the Quran Allah has sent prophets to every nation. In Surah 16:36 of the Quran Allah says: "And verily we have raised in every nation a messenger proclaiming: Serve Allah and shun false gods". Don't forget what Allah says here a messenger was sent to every nation to guide people similarly in Surah 10:47 we read: And for every nation there is a messenger and when their messenger cometh on the day of judgment, it will be judged between them fairly, and they will not be wronged. So Allah sent a messenger to every nation but the the Arabs were the last to receive guidance which is why Muhammad was the last of the messengers. Do the math here, a messenger had been sent to every nation but the people of Arabia hadn't been warned. We'll go ahead and ignore the fact that according to the Quran, Abraham and Ishmael were in Mecca where they built the Kaaba. I guess they just kept quiet while they were in Arabia constructing a house of worship. No warner to the people of Arabia before Muhammad but every other nation had its messenger. Surah 34:43-44. Sorry Abraham and Ishmael. So a messenger had been sent to every nation but no messenger had come to the Arabs, and this is why Allah sent Muhammad. Once Muhammad had been sent to the Arabs, the last people to get their messenger got him and every nation had been warned as we read in Surah 35:24: "Surely we have sent you Muhammad with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner, and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them". According to the Quran Muhammad was sent to warn his people. Other groups had their own warners and the Quran is clear that when Allah sends a messenger to a group he sends a messenger who speaks the language of that group. Surah 14:4: "And We sent not a messenger except with the language of his people in order that he might make the message clear for them. So that's why Abraham and Ishmael didn't warn the people of Mecca, wrong language. Here's where you should start to see a problem for the Muslim view of Muhammad. If Allah only sends a messenger who speaks the language of the group he's sent to, how can Muhammad be the messenger for the entire world. Did Muhammad speak English or Russian or Spanish or Mandarin - no. Then according to Allah he's not the messenger for people who speak English or Russian or Spanish or Mandarin. Allah specifically says in Surah 42:7 that the Quran was revealed in Arabic to warn the Arabs who lived in in and around Mecca: "And thus have we revealed to you Muhammad, an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother City Mecca and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt a party shall be in the garden and another party in the burning fire. It's an Arabic Revelation for people who speak Arabic. Surah 44:58: "Verily we have made this Quran easy in thy tongue in order that they may give heed". Allah made the Quran easy for those who speak Arabic and not for any other languages or nation. Allah made the Quran in Arabic so that people who speak Arabic can understand it if you don't speak Arabic it's not not for you. It would take me ages to list all verses that pretty much repeat this over and over
But why did the Arabs need a revelation in Arabic? There were Jews and Christians in Arabia and according to the Quran, Jews and Christians had reliable scripture from God. The Arabs could have simply listened to what Jews and Christians were saying about their books, so why did the Arabs need a book in their own language. Muslims today will say because the scriptures of the Jews and Christians were corrupted. Here again that's not what the Quran says, the Quran affirms the inspiration preservation and authority of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. The Quran according to Allah confirms previous scriptures in Arabic Surah 46:12: "And before this Quran was the book of Moses as a guide and a mercy, and this book the Quran confirms it in the Arabic tongue to admonish the unjust and as glad tidings to those who do right". The Quran confirms previous scriptures in the Arabic language so that Arabs will know that these books are the word of Allah. See how this works? If you were a 7th century Arab and you saw Jews claiming that they had a book from God how would you know whether to believe them? You don't understand Hebrew, how would you know if their book is from God. You would know because Allah gave you a book in your language that confirms the books in other languages. According to the Quran it makes absolutely no sense for Allah to reveal a book to a group of people unless that book is revealed in a language that the people understand. Surah 41:44: "And if We had sent this as a Quran in a foreign language, other than Arabic, they would have said: Why are not its verses explained in detail in our language? What! A book not in Arabic and the messenger an Arab?".
So, did Allah reveal the Quran because all other revelations had been corrupted, no, that's a Muslim myth, Allah revealed the Quran so that Arabs wouldn't be able to complain that they didn't have have an inspired book in their own language. The position of the Quran then goes something like this: Allah sent messengers to every nation and he inspired scriptures for different groups of people. These scriptures are reliable and authoritative for the groups they were revealed to. As of the early 7th century Arabs didn't have a revelation in their own language but these Arabs couldn't simply trust what Jews and Christians were saying about the Torah and the Gospel. How would Arabs know if Jews and Christians were telling the truth? So, Arabs needed a revelation in Arabic, that's why Allah sent Muhammad. Now that Arabs have the Quran, they can read the Quran. Other groups have their own books in their own languages. This is why Allah in the Quran orders Jews and Christians to follow their own scriptures, not the Quran. In Surah 5:43 some Jews come to Muhammad to settle a dispute. How does Allah respond?: How come they, unto thee Muhammad, for judgment when they have the Torah wherein Allah hath delivered judgment for them". Notice what Allah says. Muhammad, why are Jews coming to you when they have their own book, they don't need you, you're the messenger to the Arabs not to the Jews. Surah 5:68: "Say oh people of the book, Jews and Christians, ye have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your lord". Jews and Christians are supposed to follow the revelations that came to them. They're supposed to believe in Muhammad, they're supposed to believe in all of the messengers, but they're supposed to live by and judge by the revelations brought to them by their messengers. Allah sent a messenger to every nation people and are responsible for obeying the messenger who was sent to them speaking their language. That's the position of the Quran. Why is it a problem for Muslims? Well here goes.... Our Muslim friends tell us that the Quran is the book for all people and that the Quran can only be understood in Arabic, but the point of revealing the Quran in Arabic, according to the Quran itself, was for people to have a book in their OWN language so that they wouldn't have to learn another language to understand the word of Allah. The Quran was revealed in Arabic so that a particular group of people, the Arabs in and around Mecca, would have a revelation in their own language so that they could understand it for themselves. According to the Quran if Arabs didn't have a revelation in their own language they'd have an excuse on judgment day, they'd be able to say: Allah, you can't blame us for not obeying you, you never told us what to do in a language we could understand. Allah didn't want them to have an excuse so he sent them a revelation they could understand in the language they spoke. So, we've read the passages Allah himself says. How can I make this any clearer? I'm giving Arabs a book in their language because they can't just trust what Jews and Christians are saying about their books and I can't expect Arabs to spend years learning Hebrew or Greek so that they can examine the Torah and the Gospel for themselves. But what do our Muslim friends tell us? They tell us that we all need to live by and judge by the Quran, a book revealed in a language we don't speak and don't understand. They tell us that we either have to just believe what they say about the Quran or we have to spend years Learning a language we don't speak. This is the exact opposite of what Allah says about why he revealed the Quran. This is precisely what Allah says he was
trying to avoid. If you read the Muslim sources you'll find over and over again that our Muslim friends completely contradict their own god, their own prophet, and their own book. Why? Because they have to. Allah told them that he sent messengers to every nation and that each group had to judge by the revelations in their language, but Muslims eventually checked the books of other groups and realized that they didn't line up with Islam. The obvious conclusion to draw was that Allah and Muhammad had no clue what they were talking about, but Muslims couldn't say that because that would make them apostates. You know what happens to apostates in Islam btw, so they started lying. They say, muhhh, contrary to what Allah clearly says in the Quran, all other scriptures have been corrupted and everyone now has to judge. Once they started lying they couldn't stop which is why they lied about perfect preservation, scientific miracles, Muhammad in the Song of Solomon, religion of peace, Muhammad was a feminist, Aisha was actually 18, and so on.
Have a nice read....
Suppose we ask our Muslim friends... Why did Allah reveal the Quran in Arabic? Simple question, right? Here they'll say something like.... because Arabic is such a rich language or because Arabic is the perfect language for Allah to express his eloquence. Unfortunately for our Muslim friends the Quran tells us exactly why Allah revealed the Quran in Arabic and Allah's reasons for revealing the Quran in Arabic completely contradicts what muslim today believe about the Quran. This is why Muslim Scholars never discuss what I'm about to discuss. They don't want anyone to know what you're about to know. If you think I'm exaggerating read this until the end and explain to me how this information isn't utterly devastating to dawa.
Let's set the stage for the problem by recalling how these discussions about the Quran arise. Our Muslim friends invite us to convert to Islam and and we ask... Why should we convert to Islam? They say because it's the truth and we reply but lots of ideologies claim to be the truth, why should we believe that. Because of the Quran, they say, it's so masterfully written it must be the word of God. Now even before we open the Quran and start reading we can spot an obvious difficulty with this wonderfully written book. There are many amazing books by great authors but what in the name of common sense does all this wonderful writing have to do with whether these works are the word of God. NOTHING! But we're trying to be nice, so in spite of the absurdity of the claim we open the Quran anyway and we find the worst, most boring, most disorganized book we've ever read in our entire lives. Terrible beyond our already low expectations. So we go back to our Muslim friends and we tell them as politely as we can, the Quran is less interesting, less impressive, and less enlightening than a phone book. That's when our Muslim friends pull the ultimate Uno reverse card from the bottom of the desperation deck and they say: Well it only works in Arabic. Here we start wondering, if Islam is the religion for all people, why would the main evidence for Islam only work in one language, a language that most people do not speak, even native Arabic speakers can't understand much of the Quran because it's written in classical Arabic. But it gets worse because even classical Arabic Scholars can't understand parts of the Quran.
The Arabic scholar Gerd-R Puin, for instance, says this:
The Quran claims for itself that it is "mubeen" or clear but if you look at it, you will notice that every fifth sentence or so simply doesn't make sense. Many Muslims and orientalists will tell you otherwise, of course, but the fact is that a fifth of the quranic text is just incomprehensible. This is what has caused the traditional anxiety regarding translation. If the Quran is not comprehensible, if it can't even be understood in Arabic, then it's not translatable. People fear that and since the Quran claims repeatedly to be clear, but obviously is not, as even speakers of Arabic will tell you, there is a contradiction.
The Iranian scholar Ali Dashi in his book 23 years adds:
The Quran contains sentences which are incomplete and not fully intelligible without the aid of commentaries, foreign words, unfamiliar Arabic words, and words used with other than the normal meaning; adjectives and verb verbs inflected without observance of the concords of gender and number, illogically and ungrammatically applied pronouns which sometimes have no reference; and predicates which in rhymed passages are often remote from the subjects. These and other such aberration in the language have given scope to critics who deny the quran's eloquence.
So we're supposed to believe that the Quran is from God because of its clarity and eloquence when experts tell us that it's hopelessly unclear and not very good at all. This is where our Muslim friends jump in and tell us don't trust the experts, trust the dawa guys who say that the Quran is the most amazing book ever. Yes the dawa guys, those honest and dependable boy scouts who assured us that the Quran has been perfectly preserved but later admitted that it was all a lie. The dawa guys, those upright and credible do- goods who assured us that the Quran is filled with miraculous scientific insights but later admitted that it was all a lie. The dawa guys those compulsive liars who assure us that the Quran is supernaturally eloquent and must be from God and we just have to believe them. We just have to take their word for it. Notice, we're supposed to convert to Islam because of the supernatural eloquence of the Quran but how are we supposed to know that the Quran is supernaturally eloquent when we don't speak Arabic. What our Muslim friends are really telling us is this we either need to trust what the dawa guys say about the Quran without understanding the evidence for ourselves or we need to spend years studying classical Arabic so that we can perhaps find the evidence for ourselves someday, so we can either accept what the dawa guys say about their book without investigating or we can spend years learning another language so that we can eventually investigate the matter on our own. Why is this a problem? It's a problem because it completely contradicts the Quran and you're about to see how.
According to the Quran Allah has sent prophets to every nation. In Surah 16:36 of the Quran Allah says: "And verily we have raised in every nation a messenger proclaiming: Serve Allah and shun false gods". Don't forget what Allah says here a messenger was sent to every nation to guide people similarly in Surah 10:47 we read: And for every nation there is a messenger and when their messenger cometh on the day of judgment, it will be judged between them fairly, and they will not be wronged. So Allah sent a messenger to every nation but the the Arabs were the last to receive guidance which is why Muhammad was the last of the messengers. Do the math here, a messenger had been sent to every nation but the people of Arabia hadn't been warned. We'll go ahead and ignore the fact that according to the Quran, Abraham and Ishmael were in Mecca where they built the Kaaba. I guess they just kept quiet while they were in Arabia constructing a house of worship. No warner to the people of Arabia before Muhammad but every other nation had its messenger. Surah 34:43-44. Sorry Abraham and Ishmael. So a messenger had been sent to every nation but no messenger had come to the Arabs, and this is why Allah sent Muhammad. Once Muhammad had been sent to the Arabs, the last people to get their messenger got him and every nation had been warned as we read in Surah 35:24: "Surely we have sent you Muhammad with the truth as a bearer of good news and a warner, and there is not a people but a warner has gone among them". According to the Quran Muhammad was sent to warn his people. Other groups had their own warners and the Quran is clear that when Allah sends a messenger to a group he sends a messenger who speaks the language of that group. Surah 14:4: "And We sent not a messenger except with the language of his people in order that he might make the message clear for them. So that's why Abraham and Ishmael didn't warn the people of Mecca, wrong language. Here's where you should start to see a problem for the Muslim view of Muhammad. If Allah only sends a messenger who speaks the language of the group he's sent to, how can Muhammad be the messenger for the entire world. Did Muhammad speak English or Russian or Spanish or Mandarin - no. Then according to Allah he's not the messenger for people who speak English or Russian or Spanish or Mandarin. Allah specifically says in Surah 42:7 that the Quran was revealed in Arabic to warn the Arabs who lived in in and around Mecca: "And thus have we revealed to you Muhammad, an Arabic Quran, that you may warn the mother City Mecca and those around it, and that you may give warning of the day of gathering together wherein is no doubt a party shall be in the garden and another party in the burning fire. It's an Arabic Revelation for people who speak Arabic. Surah 44:58: "Verily we have made this Quran easy in thy tongue in order that they may give heed". Allah made the Quran easy for those who speak Arabic and not for any other languages or nation. Allah made the Quran in Arabic so that people who speak Arabic can understand it if you don't speak Arabic it's not not for you. It would take me ages to list all verses that pretty much repeat this over and over
But why did the Arabs need a revelation in Arabic? There were Jews and Christians in Arabia and according to the Quran, Jews and Christians had reliable scripture from God. The Arabs could have simply listened to what Jews and Christians were saying about their books, so why did the Arabs need a book in their own language. Muslims today will say because the scriptures of the Jews and Christians were corrupted. Here again that's not what the Quran says, the Quran affirms the inspiration preservation and authority of the scriptures of the Jews and Christians. The Quran according to Allah confirms previous scriptures in Arabic Surah 46:12: "And before this Quran was the book of Moses as a guide and a mercy, and this book the Quran confirms it in the Arabic tongue to admonish the unjust and as glad tidings to those who do right". The Quran confirms previous scriptures in the Arabic language so that Arabs will know that these books are the word of Allah. See how this works? If you were a 7th century Arab and you saw Jews claiming that they had a book from God how would you know whether to believe them? You don't understand Hebrew, how would you know if their book is from God. You would know because Allah gave you a book in your language that confirms the books in other languages. According to the Quran it makes absolutely no sense for Allah to reveal a book to a group of people unless that book is revealed in a language that the people understand. Surah 41:44: "And if We had sent this as a Quran in a foreign language, other than Arabic, they would have said: Why are not its verses explained in detail in our language? What! A book not in Arabic and the messenger an Arab?".
So, did Allah reveal the Quran because all other revelations had been corrupted, no, that's a Muslim myth, Allah revealed the Quran so that Arabs wouldn't be able to complain that they didn't have have an inspired book in their own language. The position of the Quran then goes something like this: Allah sent messengers to every nation and he inspired scriptures for different groups of people. These scriptures are reliable and authoritative for the groups they were revealed to. As of the early 7th century Arabs didn't have a revelation in their own language but these Arabs couldn't simply trust what Jews and Christians were saying about the Torah and the Gospel. How would Arabs know if Jews and Christians were telling the truth? So, Arabs needed a revelation in Arabic, that's why Allah sent Muhammad. Now that Arabs have the Quran, they can read the Quran. Other groups have their own books in their own languages. This is why Allah in the Quran orders Jews and Christians to follow their own scriptures, not the Quran. In Surah 5:43 some Jews come to Muhammad to settle a dispute. How does Allah respond?: How come they, unto thee Muhammad, for judgment when they have the Torah wherein Allah hath delivered judgment for them". Notice what Allah says. Muhammad, why are Jews coming to you when they have their own book, they don't need you, you're the messenger to the Arabs not to the Jews. Surah 5:68: "Say oh people of the book, Jews and Christians, ye have no ground to stand upon unless you stand fast by the law, the Gospel and all the revelation that has come to you from your lord". Jews and Christians are supposed to follow the revelations that came to them. They're supposed to believe in Muhammad, they're supposed to believe in all of the messengers, but they're supposed to live by and judge by the revelations brought to them by their messengers. Allah sent a messenger to every nation people and are responsible for obeying the messenger who was sent to them speaking their language. That's the position of the Quran. Why is it a problem for Muslims? Well here goes.... Our Muslim friends tell us that the Quran is the book for all people and that the Quran can only be understood in Arabic, but the point of revealing the Quran in Arabic, according to the Quran itself, was for people to have a book in their OWN language so that they wouldn't have to learn another language to understand the word of Allah. The Quran was revealed in Arabic so that a particular group of people, the Arabs in and around Mecca, would have a revelation in their own language so that they could understand it for themselves. According to the Quran if Arabs didn't have a revelation in their own language they'd have an excuse on judgment day, they'd be able to say: Allah, you can't blame us for not obeying you, you never told us what to do in a language we could understand. Allah didn't want them to have an excuse so he sent them a revelation they could understand in the language they spoke. So, we've read the passages Allah himself says. How can I make this any clearer? I'm giving Arabs a book in their language because they can't just trust what Jews and Christians are saying about their books and I can't expect Arabs to spend years learning Hebrew or Greek so that they can examine the Torah and the Gospel for themselves. But what do our Muslim friends tell us? They tell us that we all need to live by and judge by the Quran, a book revealed in a language we don't speak and don't understand. They tell us that we either have to just believe what they say about the Quran or we have to spend years Learning a language we don't speak. This is the exact opposite of what Allah says about why he revealed the Quran. This is precisely what Allah says he was
trying to avoid. If you read the Muslim sources you'll find over and over again that our Muslim friends completely contradict their own god, their own prophet, and their own book. Why? Because they have to. Allah told them that he sent messengers to every nation and that each group had to judge by the revelations in their language, but Muslims eventually checked the books of other groups and realized that they didn't line up with Islam. The obvious conclusion to draw was that Allah and Muhammad had no clue what they were talking about, but Muslims couldn't say that because that would make them apostates. You know what happens to apostates in Islam btw, so they started lying. They say, muhhh, contrary to what Allah clearly says in the Quran, all other scriptures have been corrupted and everyone now has to judge. Once they started lying they couldn't stop which is why they lied about perfect preservation, scientific miracles, Muhammad in the Song of Solomon, religion of peace, Muhammad was a feminist, Aisha was actually 18, and so on.
gang
