Loose Shelf theory of Downgrowth

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Agendum

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Too much foreward growth of the face itself without the cranial bone support leads to downswinging. Imagine having a single shelf on the wall and the dry wall screws are getting bent from the weight on the "foreward grown" front end, this is your face without adequate "wall" support. Your poor sphenoid angle basically makes your face swing downwards. Long face syndrome indicates this failure of foreward grown face (foreward grown doesnt always mean anteface;)

U63fiyIaoSn3pNbW.full

Basically when you have the bone support of having a better sphenoid angle your midface ratio becomes more compact.
You dont actually need more foreward growth, you need more upward bone support.
diy-shelf-brackets-1.jpg


I made a rough simulation of what my profile would look like without adding any bone and just slightly changing the angle of the sphenoid. Foreward growth is really just compact face, all features are compacted. Its not like its pulled foreward like a facepuller which probably misses the point of what foreward growth is perceived as. Orthodontists suggest NOT to facepull because it can make overbites worse (because it pulls in same downward angle which does not favors for an already long face.)

My proposal is force added to the pterygoid plate to ROTATE it a few degrees BACKWARD and UPWARD while having a habitually erect vertebral column. I would call the pterygoid the nails/support beam that hold up the shelf (like the image.) Why the backwards part? Closing the distance of space between poorly supported bone = insurance against downswinging.

I think the mewers were hoping that by expanding the rear palate (Where it connects to pterygoid/maxilla) it would by proxy affect the sphenoid angle but it only helps it one-dimensionally. There could be a way to skip the palate-middleman and add force to the pyerygoid directly which might affect the sphenoid indirectly. I dont think we'll have easy access to the sphenoid core any time soon with an appliance. Who knows...

1676522624531



Red = simulated

In this loose simulation you can see that I created a kind of anteface without any foreward pulling and the eye sockets are slightly more compact along with all other features. The surface area of soft tissues would be more generously distributed. Skin would be pulled similar to a facelift, a procedure which seems to unintentionally simulate what good lateral bone support would be (to distribute more skin over a larger surface area) thus pulling the at skin surrounding the lateral canthus. Just try pulling the skin there.

If mm on the facial bones are miles on the face, then mm of sphenoid angle will be like tectonic plates of the face.

This might help determine who is a worthwhile candidate for asthetic bimax, essentially filtering out alot of people. This might help explain some of the cases of relapse. Good sphenoid angle might be a prerequisite to get any added benefit.
 
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  • Hmm...
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didnt read but nice theory
 
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I wanted to read but im illiterate
 
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@Dr. Bruh
 
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good thread👍 can't see pic tho
@AscendingHero
 
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It probably has an effect but the weight of few extra cm3 of bone is nothing compared to the force your jaw and tongue produce.
 
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How can you determine if you have a good sphenoid?
 
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By the way this picture doesn't load for me:
1679759475181
 
How can you determine if you have a good sphenoid?
Green=sphenoid
1679759613519

2670969 Mewing

If you're subhuman you have a subhuman sphenoid
Head posture, good maxilla, good IPD, etc it's a very important bone
 
Last edited:
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Too much foreward growth of the face itself without the cranial bone support leads to downswinging. Imagine having a single shelf on the wall and the dry wall screws are getting bent from the weight on the "foreward grown" front end, this is your face without adequate "wall" support. Your poor sphenoid angle basically makes your face swing downwards. Long face syndrome indicates this failure of foreward grown face (foreward grown doesnt always mean anteface;)

U63fiyIaoSn3pNbW.full

Basically when you have the bone support of having a better sphenoid angle your midface ratio becomes more compact.
You dont actually need more foreward growth, you need more upward bone support.
diy-shelf-brackets-1.jpg


I made a rough simulation of what my profile would look like without adding any bone and just slightly changing the angle of the sphenoid. Foreward growth is really just compact face, all features are compacted. Its not like its pulled foreward like a facepuller which probably misses the point of what foreward growth is perceived as. Orthodontists suggest NOT to facepull because it can make overbites worse (because it pulls in same downward angle which does not favors for an already long face.)

My proposal is force added to the pterygoid plate to ROTATE it a few degrees BACKWARD and UPWARD while having a habitually erect vertebral column. I would call the pterygoid the nails/support beam that hold up the shelf (like the image.) Why the backwards part? Closing the distance of space between poorly supported bone = insurance against downswinging.

I think the mewers were hoping that by expanding the rear palate (Where it connects to pterygoid/maxilla) it would by proxy affect the sphenoid angle but it only helps it one-dimensionally. There could be a way to skip the palate-middleman and add force to the pyerygoid directly which might affect the sphenoid indirectly. I dont think we'll have easy access to the sphenoid core any time soon with an appliance. Who knows...

1676522624531



Red = simulated

In this loose simulation you can see that I created a kind of anteface without any foreward pulling and the eye sockets are slightly more compact along with all other features. The surface area of soft tissues would be more generously distributed. Skin would be pulled similar to a facelift, a procedure which seems to unintentionally simulate what good lateral bone support would be (to distribute more skin over a larger surface area) thus pulling the at skin surrounding the lateral canthus. Just try pulling the skin there.

If mm on the facial bones are miles on the face, then mm of sphenoid angle will be like tectonic plates of the face.

This might help determine who is a worthwhile candidate for asthetic bimax, essentially filtering out alot of people. This might help explain some of the cases of relapse. Good sphenoid angle might be a prerequisite to get any added benefit.
Good theory, one of the last few high iq cels on the forum

Affect the maxilla has a drop off effect on the sphenoid and we can look into things like craniodontics, NCR therapy, endo nasal balloons

Many Modern orthondontists are outdated, in regards to Craniofacial dystrophy and overbites it all starts with poor tongue/posture oral habits, the palate looses support and gets vaulted/narrower , this causes a drop off effect on virtually everything else you can imagine

The sphenoid has to loosen up to allow the maxilla to even widen.


An overbite is just a downward and narrow maxilla which has then foreced the mandible to remodel, things like tongue thrusting/lip/tongue ties are associated with it and even things like posterior open bites

Widening and advancing the maxilla uncages the mandible to then allow to slide forward and meet it in a more favorable position if anything.



The mandible could possibly do this +it also acts like a lever to the face and vice versa with the sphenoid
 
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  • Woah
Reactions: triggr, Won't Stop Mewing, rooman and 2 others
Too much foreward growth of the face itself without the cranial bone support leads to downswinging. Imagine having a single shelf on the wall and the dry wall screws are getting bent from the weight on the "foreward grown" front end, this is your face without adequate "wall" support. Your poor sphenoid angle basically makes your face swing downwards. Long face syndrome indicates this failure of foreward grown face (foreward grown doesnt always mean anteface;)

U63fiyIaoSn3pNbW.full

Basically when you have the bone support of having a better sphenoid angle your midface ratio becomes more compact.
You dont actually need more foreward growth, you need more upward bone support.
diy-shelf-brackets-1.jpg


I made a rough simulation of what my profile would look like without adding any bone and just slightly changing the angle of the sphenoid. Foreward growth is really just compact face, all features are compacted. Its not like its pulled foreward like a facepuller which probably misses the point of what foreward growth is perceived as. Orthodontists suggest NOT to facepull because it can make overbites worse (because it pulls in same downward angle which does not favors for an already long face.)

My proposal is force added to the pterygoid plate to ROTATE it a few degrees BACKWARD and UPWARD while having a habitually erect vertebral column. I would call the pterygoid the nails/support beam that hold up the shelf (like the image.) Why the backwards part? Closing the distance of space between poorly supported bone = insurance against downswinging.

I think the mewers were hoping that by expanding the rear palate (Where it connects to pterygoid/maxilla) it would by proxy affect the sphenoid angle but it only helps it one-dimensionally. There could be a way to skip the palate-middleman and add force to the pyerygoid directly which might affect the sphenoid indirectly. I dont think we'll have easy access to the sphenoid core any time soon with an appliance. Who knows...

1676522624531



Red = simulated

In this loose simulation you can see that I created a kind of anteface without any foreward pulling and the eye sockets are slightly more compact along with all other features. The surface area of soft tissues would be more generously distributed. Skin would be pulled similar to a facelift, a procedure which seems to unintentionally simulate what good lateral bone support would be (to distribute more skin over a larger surface area) thus pulling the at skin surrounding the lateral canthus. Just try pulling the skin there.

If mm on the facial bones are miles on the face, then mm of sphenoid angle will be like tectonic plates of the face.

This might help determine who is a worthwhile candidate for asthetic bimax, essentially filtering out alot of people. This might help explain some of the cases of relapse. Good sphenoid angle might be a prerequisite to get any added benefit.
You are spot on, I am working with an orthodontist who does this and has a Craniosacral therapist in the same room on the team and makes changes congurently, it’s actually insane
 
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You are spot on, I am working with an orthodontist who does this and has a Craniosacral therapist in the same room on the team and makes changes congurently, it’s actually insane
If you could gather more info on that, it would make for a great thread
 
If you could gather more info on that, it would make for a great thread
Unfortunately I can’t, I’m not sure if it was you or another user in this thread but just know that you are spot on regarding the sphenoid bone and it’s positioning regarding the skull.
This clinic I am visiting is truly insane, has an orthodontist who then hired a Myofunctional Therapist and a Cranio Sacral Therapist in the same rooms. Some of the results in kids are insane
 
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TLDR: We understand if the bone goes down it looks bad, but how do we prevent this / reverse it?
 
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Good theory, one of the last few high iq cels on the forum

Affect the maxilla has a drop off effect on the sphenoid and we can look into things like craniodontics, NCR therapy, endo nasal balloons

Many Modern orthondontists are outdated, in regards to Craniofacial dystrophy and overbites it all starts with poor tongue/posture oral habits, the palate looses support and gets vaulted/narrower , this causes a drop off effect on virtually everything else you can imagine

The sphenoid has to loosen up to allow the maxilla to even widen.


An overbite is just a downward and narrow maxilla which has then foreced the mandible to remodel, things like tongue thrusting/lip/tongue ties are associated with it and even things like posterior open bites

Widening and advancing the maxilla uncages the mandible to then allow to slide forward and meet it in a more favorable position if anything.



The mandible could possibly do this +it also acts like a lever to the face and vice versa with the sphenoid

You are spot on, I am working with an orthodontist who does this and has a Craniosacral therapist in the same room on the team and makes changes congurently, it’s actually insane
 
  • +1
  • Love it
Reactions: Deleted member 27660, 5'7 zoomer, Agendum and 1 other person
Good theory, one of the last few high iq cels on the forum

Affect the maxilla has a drop off effect on the sphenoid and we can look into things like craniodontics, NCR therapy, endo nasal balloons

Many Modern orthondontists are outdated, in regards to Craniofacial dystrophy and overbites it all starts with poor tongue/posture oral habits, the palate looses support and gets vaulted/narrower , this causes a drop off effect on virtually everything else you can imagine

The sphenoid has to loosen up to allow the maxilla to even widen.


An overbite is just a downward and narrow maxilla which has then foreced the mandible to remodel, things like tongue thrusting/lip/tongue ties are associated with it and even things like posterior open bites

Widening and advancing the maxilla uncages the mandible to then allow to slide forward and meet it in a more favorable position if anything.



The mandible could possibly do this +it also acts like a lever to the face and vice versa with the sphenoid

So TLDR: We understand if the bone goes down it looks bad, but how do we prevent this / reverse it?
 
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Reactions: 5'7 zoomer, Agendum and AscendingHero
So TLDR: We understand if the bone goes down it looks bad, but how do we prevent this / reverse it?
I remember reading somewhere that this is fixed by improving posture, but I'm not at all sure, I remember that they recommended doing a strong chintuck
 
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So TLDR: We understand if the bone goes down it looks bad, but how do we prevent this / reverse it?
Can anyone explain this? @AscendingHero @Agendum
 
So TLDR: We understand if the bone goes down it looks bad, but how do we prevent this / reverse it?
In the image of my simulation I suggested slight backward rotation and upward force at the back of the palate. But its not like chewing/clenching as its localized on the bite itself rather than the rest of the skull.
 
In the image of my simulation I suggested slight backward rotation and upward force at the back of the palate. But its not like chewing/clenching as its localized on the bite itself rather than the rest of the skull.
This is exactly what happened to me and what I did without knowing it.
Pm me privately and I’ll send pics
 
bump, can we thumbpull to achieve results?
 
bump, can we thumbpull to achieve results?
Not sure, maybe possible but might need to be an appliance in the future/near future. The main thing that can be felt and pressed on by thumbpulling/pushing is the medial pterygoid process.

Its shape might be different for each person

1686455869571
 
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Not sure, maybe possible but might need to be an appliance in the future/near future. The main thing that can be felt and pressed on by thumbpulling/pushing is the medial pterygoid process.

Its shape might be different for each person

View attachment 2254517
i’m pushing up, shit it should help somewhat since my undereyes are already lacking support

i want my face to be visually more compact too
 
Can lefort with cww rotation fix this?
 
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How do you rotate the sphenoid tho nobody says man
 
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