MSE + FM is probably not very good and just a glorified version of regular facepulling

[retard]

Tbh it is saddens me to make this post but MSE + FM is probably not very good. There have been loads of false information put forth by orthodontists regarding MSE and its capabilities along with other people's false claims who have gotten MSE and its effects. (@varbrah who claimed 5 mm forward growth while only pulling for 8 hours a day while never providing the xrays he claimed he got JFL)

The first blow to MSE was realizing it was not a really bone borne like claimed, and that it is just a regular tooth borne puller (basically the effect as the og @CopeAndRope puller)

Comparison of two maxillary protraction protocols: tooth-borne versus bone-anchored protraction facemask treatment - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Protraction facemask has been advocated for treatment of class III malocclusion with maxillary deficiency. Studies using tooth-borne rapid palatal expansion (RPE) appliance as anchorage have experienced side effects such as forward movement of the maxillary molars, excessive...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

Here is a study done on facemask with RME, and the FM is attached to the hyrax. 2.9 mm of forward growth was noted after treatment

They also did a bone anchored modified hyrax group using mini implants just like MSE, and pulled from the same location MSE pulls from.

Guess how much forward growth the "bone anchored" group got?






3mm, brutal





so adding "bone anchorage" gave .1 more mm jfl, other studies that are truly bone anchored, such as BAMP use 1/3 of the force of tooth borne facepullers, and get double the forward growth.

This was the first downfall of MSE + FM, secondly it was the once again falsely propagated idea that MSE opens up the circummaxillary sutures, and the disarticulation of the sutures allows for much faster protraction.

Effects of rapid maxillary expansion on the cranial and circummaxillary sutures

The aim of this study was to determine whether the orthopedic forces of rapid maxillary expansion cause significant quantitative changes in the cranial and the circummaxillary sutures.Twenty patients (mean age, 12.3 ± 1.9 years) who required rapid ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Rapid maxillary expansion produced significant width increases in the intermaxillary, internasal, maxillonasal, frontomaxillary, and frontonasal sutures, whereas the frontozygomatic, zygomaticomaxillary, zygomaticotemporal, and pterygomaxillary sutures showed nonsignificant changes.

Basically palate expansion does jack shit for the circummaxillary sutures (the sutures where forward growth is generated at), there are also many studies that contemplate if palate expansion even aids in maxilla protraction, and while still controversial it is leaning towards the side that it does not.

The effects of maxillary protraction therapy with or without rapid palatal expansion: a prospective, randomized clinical trial - PubMed

The results of this continuing 5-year clinical trial indicate that early facemask therapy, with or without palatal expansion, is effective to correct skeletal Class III malocclusions.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So now, MSE doesn't do shit to open the sutural system + it is tooth borne, so it really has no advantages over a puller like CopeAndRope's, but any form of tooth borne protraction is really shit for anyone over the age of 13 if there isn't an actual underbite present


It was a good run boyos, but it seems the holy grail of looksmaxxing has yet to be found

disclaimer: mse is still okay in niche scenarios like if u have a generally narrow face, but if u don't, you wouldnt benefit from maxilla widening that much, and facepulling isnt viable, so there would be really no reason to get it unless it was for breathing, esp considering when u have to diastemamaxx for several months

 

[Warlow]

chief
maxillaologist
of looksmax
@retard with the scoop.

fr though, you're saving people from the hassle of tossing 5k on something that isn't providing much in the long run.

 

[Deleted member 6382]

The first blow to MSE was realizing it was not a really bone borne like claimed, and that it is just a regular tooth borne puller (basically the effect as the og @CopeAndRope puller)

Comparison of two maxillary protraction protocols: tooth-borne versus bone-anchored protraction facemask treatment - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Protraction facemask has been advocated for treatment of class III malocclusion with maxillary deficiency. Studies using tooth-borne rapid palatal expansion (RPE) appliance as anchorage have experienced side effects such as forward movement of the maxillary molars, excessive...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

Here is a study done on facemask with RME, and the FM is attached to the hyrax. 2.9 mm of forward growth was noted after treatment

They also did a bone anchored modified hyrax group using mini implants just like MSE, and pulled from the same location MSE pulls from.

Guess how much forward growth the "bone anchored" group got?






3mm, brutal

How is that proving its not bone borne? Because it had the same results? Lmao?

 

[Deleted member 9467]

@retard

1) Would MSE lower a high-arched palate/vault?

2) Would face-pulling be more viable for super narrowcels (I have 33mm imw)

3) Don't different phenotypes/skull shapes have different sutures in the skull? Would this alter the effectiveness of mse?

 

[Deleted member 9467]

How is that proving its not bone borne? Because it had the same results? Lmao?

Good point dude

 

[Deleted member 6382]

This was the first downfall of MSE + FM, secondly it was the once again falsely propagated idea that MSE opens up the circummaxillary sutures, and the disarticulation of the sutures allows for much faster protraction.

Effects of rapid maxillary expansion on the cranial and circummaxillary sutures
Rapid maxillary expansion produced significant width increases in the intermaxillary, internasal, maxillonasal, frontomaxillary, and frontonasal sutures, whereas the frontozygomatic, zygomaticomaxillary, zygomaticotemporal, and pterygomaxillary sutures showed nonsignificant changes.

Basically palate expansion does jack shit for the circummaxillary sutures (the sutures where forward growth is generated at), there are also many studies that contemplate if palate expansion even aids in maxilla protraction, and while still controversial it is leaning towards the side that it does not.

Do you even understand how forward growth is created via facepulling? Its literally sutural growth, you seem to think we are sliding the maxilla in places with open sutures lmao

 

[MedMaxxing]

Yeah no shit. This stuff is only worthwhile for people using it for function or people who are kids/teens for aesthetic benefit. If you want legitimate change for your maxilla, stuff like Bimax, ZSO, modified osteotomies for cheekbones etc are much better

 

[Good_Little_Goy]

(@varbrah who claimed 5 mm forward growth while only pulling for 8 hours a day while never providing the xrays he claimed he got JFL)

He claims abt 4mm but yeah
Ting said you’re lucky to get 2mm as an adult male...

 

[Deleted member 6382]

Yeah no shit. This stuff is only worthwhile for people using it for function or people who are kids/teens for aesthetic benefit. If you want legitimate change for your maxilla, stuff like Bimax, ZSO, modified osteotomies for cheekbones etc are much better

Obv, people here seem expect lefort/bimax tier results with mse and fm. Dont get me wrong you can get decent results with it even as an adult, but nothing near jaw surgery

 

[retard]

How is that proving its not bone borne? Because it had the same results? Lmao?

the wire of the mse that connects molar band to the expander is extremely flimsy, like a paper clip, which means it cannot withstand the force without deforming, meaning the force has to go into the molar not the mse

@retard

1) Would MSE lower a high-arched palate/vault?

2) Would face-pulling be more viable for super narrowcels (I have 33mm imw)

3) Don't different phenotypes/skull shapes have different sutures in the skull? Would this alter the effectiveness of mse?

1. dont think so

2. itd have no effect

3.
nah some sutures are more interdigitated than others, but for our ages they are all fused 99%

Do you even understand how forward growth is created via facepulling? Its literally sutural growth, you seem to think we are sliding the maxilla in places with open sutures lmao

pull on the maxilla > tension at the circummaxillary sutures > pulls the articulating bones away from each other > connective tissue at the suture generates new bone similar to an epiphyseal plate > maxilla is now forwardly displaced[/QUOTE]

 

[varbrah]

@varbrah who claimed 5 mm forward growth while only pulling for 8 hours a day while never providing the xrays he claimed he got JFL

You just pulling shit out of your ass?

I got 3-4mm of protraction (depending on measurement method). 8-12 hours was the daily minimum amount of time spent protracting - not the maximum.

And why tf would I purchase expensive software and then take time out of my day to make x-ray impositions for low functioning psl autists? I literally don’t care if anyone else gets it

 

[retard]

You just pulling shit out of your ass?

I got 3-4mm of protraction (depending on measurement method). 8-12 hours was the daily minimum amount of time spent protracting - not the maximum.

And why tf would I purchase expensive software and then take time out of my day to make x-ray impositions for low functioning psl autists? I literally don’t care if anyone else gets it

hm thought it was 5, anyways that is not nearly long enough to get 3-4 mm anyways

@Aeons had mse and did fm at 15, he should of gotten at a minimum 3-4 considering his age but i do not think he got near that

 

[RichardwillImprove]

im confused so u still get protraction but it just takes more time or should it not be done all together lol.

 

[retard]

im confused so u still get protraction but it just takes more time or should it not be done all together lol.

you would if you pulled with high enough force and for a long enough time, but that isnt different from any regular method of maxilla protraction, the reason mse was supposed to be the holy grail was bcus of super speed rates due to bone anchored + open sutures

 

[Mastermind]

Zero evidence of achievable facepulling results, all non-surgical measures are cope

 

[varbrah]

hm thought it was 5, anyways that is not nearly long enough to get 3-4 mm anyways

@Aeons had mse and did fm at 15, he should of gotten at a minimum 3-4 considering his age but i do not think he got near that

Anecdotally all of my protraction occured within the first 2 months or so following sutural disruption.

Keep in mind there are limiting factors to protraction apart from age (although age is the overarching factor), such as an individual’s craniofacial structure/physiology and how this translates to perimaxillary sutural disarticulation on a case-by-case basis.

Btw, if you read some of my older reports on here or TGW, I believe I mentioned I was on:
a) 500-800mg/wk of Test E for 20 weeks + Anavar for 8 weeks
b) GH peptides 3x daily + 25mg MK677 daily

All of the above improve bone growth and metabolism. Might be why I responded better than most.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

you would if you pulled with high enough force and for a long enough time, but that isnt different from any regular method of maxilla protraction, the reason mse was supposed to be the holy grail was bcus of super speed rates due to bone anchored + open sutures

so if a person doesnt care about speed of which protraction is achieved pulling for a long time would u still be against pulling from MSE since from my understanding upper maxilla still moves even if it’s tooth born or am I stupid lol.
]

 

[Deleted member 3020]

i have MSE and fm and I can confirm it’s not what we expected. Brutal

bimax will remain the king

 

[MedMaxxing]

Obv, people here seem expect lefort/bimax tier results with mse and fm. Dont get me wrong you can get decent results with it even as an adult, but nothing near jaw surgery

Yeah I would rather just suck up the 1 bad week of recovery and get superior results than spend 3 months with my palette slowly opening and get minimal results.

 

[Deleted member 6382]

Yeah I would rather just suck up the 1 bad week of recovery and get superior results than spend 3 months with my palette slowly opening and get minimal results.

Theres a lot more to it than just 1 bad week of recovery lol

 

[MedMaxxing]

Theres a lot more to it than just 1 bad week of recovery lol

Nah the worst is the first 3-4 days. Then it becomes way easier.

 

[Pharoah]

@retard so would you still recommend pulling for someone with a 2mm underbite? Will being tooth borne still move the entire maxilla, giving me under eye improvement?

 

[Chintuck22]

But doing MSE in attempt get changes from chewing works. You've stated it yourself, so the only benefit we get from MSE is if we are going to do chewing and mewing.

THE FIRST CCW ROTATION IN PSL HISTORY HAS BEEN OBTAINED WITH MSE

Holy shit, this is literally history in the making for looksmaxxers, someone on here who has got MSE with Dr. Ting has been incisor chewing falim 8 hours a day and frontally tip mewing whenever not chewing Dr. Ting got pissed as fuck at him and asked him what he did to his maxilla to rotate it...

looksmax.org

 

[retard]

But doing MSE in attempt get changes from chewing works. You've stated it yourself, so the only benefit we get from MSE is if we are going to do chewing and mewing.

THE FIRST CCW ROTATION IN PSL HISTORY HAS BEEN OBTAINED WITH MSE

Holy shit, this is literally history in the making for looksmaxxers, someone on here who has got MSE with Dr. Ting has been incisor chewing falim 8 hours a day and frontally tip mewing whenever not chewing Dr. Ting got pissed as fuck at him and asked him what he did to his maxilla to rotate it...

looksmax.org

View attachment 877711 View attachment 877714

ya tbh there are too many variables we can’t account for to make that conclusion though

1. he had surgical assist too which could of altered results
2. He was chewing like a maniac (8 hours a day) which hasn’t been done before, it could end up being completely possible to get those results without mse/surgical assist

 

[Chintuck22]

ya tbh there are too many variables we can’t account for to make that conclusion though

1. he had surgical assist too which could of altered results
2. He was chewing like a maniac (8 hours a day) which hasn’t been done before, it could end up being completely possible to get those results without mse/surgical assist

We will draw the conclusion after the x ray's done

 

[RichardwillImprove]

i have MSE and fm and I can confirm it’s not what we expected. Brutal

bimax will remain the king

what changes did u get lol.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

what changes did u get lol.

laterally prominent zygos, wider smile, wider mouth all from mse, FM didn’t do much aesthetically

 

[Deleted member 6382]

@retard how effective do you think downward pulling is? for downward growth obv, easier to achieve than forward growth??

 

[retard]

@retard so would you still recommend pulling for someone with a 2mm underbite? Will being tooth borne still move the entire maxilla, giving me under eye improvement?

it would be so insignificant it wouldn’t be noticeable tbh

@retard how effective do you think downward pulling is? for downward growth obv, easier to achieve than forward growth??

tbh idk if it really would be that much easier, maybe very slightly since the sutures are facing downwards, it might be easier to csuse a disarticulation

 

[Incoming]

laterally prominent zygos, wider smile, wider mouth all from mse, FM didn’t do much aesthetically

Any improvements in under eye support/dark circles?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Any improvements in under eye support/dark circles?

idk never really had dark circles, but I still have a negative orbital vector

 

[RichardwillImprove]

idk never really had dark circles, but I still have a negative orbital vector

how much movement did u get and how long did u wear it for.

 

[JustBeCurry]

damn rip, im not getting mse anymore because it is going to fuck up my es ratio tbh

 

[spark]

Tbh it is saddens me to make this post but MSE + FM is probably not very good. There have been loads of false information put forth by orthodontists regarding MSE and its capabilities along with other people's false claims who have gotten MSE and its effects. (@varbrah who claimed 5 mm forward growth while only pulling for 8 hours a day while never providing the xrays he claimed he got JFL)

The first blow to MSE was realizing it was not a really bone borne like claimed, and that it is just a regular tooth borne puller (basically the effect as the og @CopeAndRope puller)

Comparison of two maxillary protraction protocols: tooth-borne versus bone-anchored protraction facemask treatment - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Protraction facemask has been advocated for treatment of class III malocclusion with maxillary deficiency. Studies using tooth-borne rapid palatal expansion (RPE) appliance as anchorage have experienced side effects such as forward movement of the maxillary molars, excessive...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

Here is a study done on facemask with RME, and the FM is attached to the hyrax. 2.9 mm of forward growth was noted after treatment

They also did a bone anchored modified hyrax group using mini implants just like MSE, and pulled from the same location MSE pulls from.

Guess how much forward growth the "bone anchored" group got?






3mm, brutal





so adding "bone anchorage" gave .1 more mm jfl, other studies that are truly bone anchored, such as BAMP use 1/3 of the force of tooth borne facepullers, and get double the forward growth.

This was the first downfall of MSE + FM, secondly it was the once again falsely propagated idea that MSE opens up the circummaxillary sutures, and the disarticulation of the sutures allows for much faster protraction.

Effects of rapid maxillary expansion on the cranial and circummaxillary sutures

The aim of this study was to determine whether the orthopedic forces of rapid maxillary expansion cause significant quantitative changes in the cranial and the circummaxillary sutures.Twenty patients (mean age, 12.3 ± 1.9 years) who required rapid ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Rapid maxillary expansion produced significant width increases in the intermaxillary, internasal, maxillonasal, frontomaxillary, and frontonasal sutures, whereas the frontozygomatic, zygomaticomaxillary, zygomaticotemporal, and pterygomaxillary sutures showed nonsignificant changes.

Basically palate expansion does jack shit for the circummaxillary sutures (the sutures where forward growth is generated at), there are also many studies that contemplate if palate expansion even aids in maxilla protraction, and while still controversial it is leaning towards the side that it does not.

The effects of maxillary protraction therapy with or without rapid palatal expansion: a prospective, randomized clinical trial - PubMed

The results of this continuing 5-year clinical trial indicate that early facemask therapy, with or without palatal expansion, is effective to correct skeletal Class III malocclusions.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So now, MSE doesn't do shit to open the sutural system + it is tooth borne, so it really has no advantages over a puller like CopeAndRope's, but any form of tooth borne protraction is really shit for anyone over the age of 13 if there isn't an actual underbite present


It was a good run boyos, but it seems the holy grail of looksmaxxing has yet to be found

disclaimer: mse is still okay in niche scenarios like if u have a generally narrow face, but if u don't, you wouldnt benefit from maxilla widening that much, and facepulling isnt viable, so there would be really no reason to get it unless it was for breathing, esp considering when u have to diastemamaxx for several months

Well what about MSE+BAMP then? sergio said one could use both BAMP and a FM at the same time.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Well what about MSE+BAMP then? sergio said one could use both BAMP and a FM at the same time.

dude just get MSE and bimax

 

[spark]

dude just get MSE and bimax

LEFORT doesnt even improve the undereyes which is the most important thing for me

I'd need a bimax + mse + implants and it would be like 5 times more expensive too and I don't want that

 

[The Bleach Pill]

LEFORT doesnt even improve the undereyes which is the most important thing for me

I'd need a bimax + mse + implants and it would be like 5 times more expensive too and I don't want that

modified lefort 3

 

[spark]

FM also gives a CW rotation unless you're using a special two direction puller.

 

[spark]

i have MSE and fm and I can confirm it’s not what we expected. Brutal

bimax will remain the king

Do you think you got any forward protraction like at least 1 mm? Also how long do you wear it each day and how much are you expanding with MSE?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Do you think you got any forward protraction like at least 1 mm? Also how long do you wear it each day and how much are you expanding with MSE?

i definitely got protraction, my ortho showed me my Upper incisors before and after and they moved a lot. I wore at like 20 hrs a day on average, my ortho wants me to slow it down to 12 hrs because ive gotten too much protraction. 8mm with mse

 

[Gremblo]

i definitely got protraction, my ortho showed me my Upper incisors before and after and they moved a lot. I wore at like 20 hrs a day on average, my ortho wants me to slow it down to 12 hrs because ive gotten too much protraction. 8mm with mse

So you're getting so much protection you have to slow down, but it's not what you thought? What exactly were you expecting? Lefort 3?

 

[retard]

Well what about MSE+BAMP then? sergio said one could use both BAMP and a FM at the same time.

theres really no reason to do the MSE with the BAMP, unless you specifically needed maxillary widening, and BAMP doesn't work on kids older than like 14 due to the very low forces used, and if you try higher forces the implants destabalize

 

[retard]

So you're getting so much protection you have to slow down, but it's not what you thought? What exactly were you expecting? Lefort 3?

tooth borne protraction doesnt offer any aesthetic benefit like skeletal does, anytime u use a tooth borne puller u will get a combo of both, primarily tooth movement

 

[tyronelite]

Fuck man.. I had high hopes. I guess I'll just stick to invisalign

 

[Deleted member 3020]

So you're getting so much protection you have to slow down, but it's not what you thought? What exactly were you expecting? Lefort 3?

no the midface protraction didnt really do much aesthetic benefit, i have to slow down because my overjet is getting worse.

 

[spark]

theres really no reason to do the MSE with the BAMP, unless you specifically needed maxillary widening, and BAMP doesn't work on kids older than like 14 due to the very low forces used, and if you try higher forces the implants destabalize

Sergio said he uses bamp. Also if BAMP is better for kids than FM and FM works in adults then why BAMP wouldn't?

 

[retard]

Sergio said he uses bamp. Also if BAMP is better for kids than FM and FM works in adults then why BAMP wouldn't?

there is a threshold of force required once the sutures are closed, with open sutures bamp is god tier, with closed sutures u need to load the fuck out of a facemask to distract the sutures in order to get some level of growth

 

[spark]

there is a threshold of force required once the sutures are closed, with open sutures bamp is god tier, with closed sutures u need to load the fuck out of a facemask to distract the sutures in order to get some level of growth

you open the midpalatal suture with MSE

 

[KrissKross]

Fucking suifuel
Why are orthodontists so fucking deceptive?
Greatly appreciate your write up @retard bro, it’s much appreciated

 

[retard]

you open the midpalatal suture with MSE

ye but that does nothing for the circummax sutures and that’s what really needs to be opened