MSE + FM is probably not very good and just a glorified version of regular facepulling

[spark]

ye but that does nothing for the circummax sutures and that’s what really needs to be opened

I just don't think it makes sense dude. If BAMP does a superior job in kids and FM outright sucks even in kids then it is impossible for BAMP to not work in adults while FM works just fine. Not to mention why would Sergio use it when he doesn't even like the idea of non lefort protraction. The fact that the forces are lower should not be that much of an issue since BAMP is bone borne and FM isn't. The forces aren't even that much lower. Even in the study in OP the FM used like 350 g force or something. Not to mention one can use both at the same time.

 

[goat2x]

I just don't think it makes sense dude. If BAMP does a superior job in kids and FM outright sucks even in kids then it is impossible for BAMP to not work in adults while FM works just fine. Not to mention why would Sergio use it when he doesn't even like the idea of non lefort protraction. The fact that the forces are lower should not be that much of an issue since BAMP is bone borne and FM isn't. The forces aren't even that much lower. Even in the study in OP the FM used like 350 g force or something.

Sergio said it already that he doesnt have good expectations from face mask he said 100x times already

the bamp requires too much force in adults all the studies are on kids

adult fm moves the primarly teeth aswell idk whats hard to understand

 

[retard]

I just don't think it makes sense dude. If BAMP does a superior job in kids and FM outright sucks even in kids then it is impossible for BAMP to not work in adults while FM works just fine. Not to mention why would Sergio use it when he doesn't even like the idea of non lefort protraction. The fact that the forces are lower should not be that much of an issue since BAMP is bone borne and FM isn't. The forces aren't even that much lower. Even in the study in OP the FM used like 350 g force or something. Not to mention one can use both at the same time.

Yh I get where your coming from but the only study done on BAMP on older kids shows that after the sutures fuse it isn’t very good

Zygomaticomaxillary suture maturation: Part II—The influence of sutural maturation on the response to maxillary protraction

To evaluate the influence of the maturational stages of zygomaticomaxillary sutures (ZMS) on the response to maxillary protraction.A total of 40 Class III patients were treated retrospectively with either a combination of rapid maxillary expansion and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

 

[Deleted member 3679]

Theres a lot more to it than just 1 bad week of recovery lol

Not really... after the first week you can eat normal food again and a month later I was back in the gym. It's been almost 2 months since my surgery and my strength is back 100% regarding weights, my speech is almost completely perfect except the numbness in my lower lip. I think it's better to just get the jaw surgery so at least you know you're getting results and just suck up the recovery.

 

[spark]

Sergio said it already that he doesnt have good expectations from face mask he said 100x times already

the bamp requires too much force in adults all the studies are on kids

adult fm moves the primarly teeth aswell idk whats hard to understand

Not sure what does your post have to do with mine. What are you even talking about? Sergio said both that A) He uses BAMP (in fact I didn't even know what it meant before he mentioned it) and B) That it's possible to combine BAMP with the FM

Ye it's true that he doesn't really have high expectations of the amount of protraction but if the FM on it's own routinely does 2mm on adults the BAMP should do better than that. That is all I am saying.

 

[spark]

Yh I get where your coming from but the only study done on BAMP on older kids shows that after the sutures fuse it isn’t very good

Zygomaticomaxillary suture maturation: Part II—The influence of sutural maturation on the response to maxillary protraction

To evaluate the influence of the maturational stages of zygomaticomaxillary sutures (ZMS) on the response to maxillary protraction.A total of 40 Class III patients were treated retrospectively with either a combination of rapid maxillary expansion and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Yeah just read it that sucks but the FM does even worse. It's the MSE which loosens up the face which should make BAMP viable when FM on its own already somewhat works.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

FM also gives a CW rotation unless you're using a special two direction puller.

example of 2 directional face puller wanna use the right one.

 

[RichardwillImprove]

i definitely got protraction, my ortho showed me my Upper incisors before and after and they moved a lot. I wore at like 20 hrs a day on average, my ortho wants me to slow it down to 12 hrs because ive gotten too much protraction. 8mm with mse

did ur upper maxilla move and it is just not noticeable or did it not move at all.

 

[Deleted member 3020]

did ur upper maxilla move and it is just not noticeable or did it not move at all.

it did move im just fucking recessed as hell and my orbitals are flat so it feels like nothing moved

 

[hairyballscel]

it did move im just fucking recessed as hell and my orbitals are flat so it feels like nothing moved

jfl over for me, one of the main reasons i wanted mse + fm was for my undereyes

 

[spark]

example of 2 directional face puller wanna use the right one.

I am only aware of RAMPA (some Asian orthos use it) and the Mew Vector.

 

[Agendum]

One thing I'm wonder about the studies of protraction is if it done on white people or asians? Would there be different results from racial differences in bone structure as asian faces are harder or get less gains from protraction?

 

[SPFromNY914]

Yeah I would rather just suck up the 1 bad week of recovery and get superior results than spend 3 months with my palette slowly opening and get minimal results.

nigga said 1 bad week lmao, there's much more pain to that lol

 

[MedMaxxing]

nigga said 1 bad week lmao, there's much more pain to that lol

No sir. I've spoken to enough accounts of people who do jaw surgery. The bulk of the pain is in the first 3-4 days. The rest of the recovery is regaining ability to eat which is the longest part of the recovery.

 

[clavicel]

As Sergio has been telling us, the addition of something bone-anchored from which the facemask can pull instead of the MSE is a major improvement to the whole procedure. Why ignore such an obvious step to address this shortcoming?

 

[SPFromNY914]

No sir. I've spoken to enough accounts of people who do jaw surgery. The bulk of the pain is in the first 3-4 days. The rest of the recovery is regaining ability to eat which is the longest part of the recovery.

Also regaining nerve feeling, regaining ability to speak correctly again for some, extc extc

 

[Sergio-OMS]

Well what about MSE+BAMP then? sergio said one could use both BAMP and a FM at the same time.

You can.

still quite homeopathic.

 

[Sergio-OMS]

ye but that does nothing for the circummax sutures and that’s what really needs to be opened

MSE can open circumaxillary sutures.

 

[retard]

MSE can open circumaxillary sutures.

Hm, have there been any studies on this or just based on your experience or some other factor?

I think I read a study that I agree with, someone’s opinion regarding expansion and sutures.

they said palate expansion could “prime” the osteogenic cells in sutures for causing potentially faster growth in completely unfused sutures, which in the process lessens the dental compensation that u typically get it u do palate expansion + FM, but that is all it does, is prime the cells, and there isn’t a (significant) physical distraction of the suture

what do you think about that idea?

 

[spark]

You can.

still quite homeopathic.

Is it not a big deal though that I a previously retracted (but still) class II and not a class III? I'd do a mandibular surgery afterwards of course.

 

[optimisticzoomer]

Yh I get where your coming from but the only study done on BAMP on older kids shows that after the sutures fuse it isn’t very good

Zygomaticomaxillary suture maturation: Part II—The influence of sutural maturation on the response to maxillary protraction

To evaluate the influence of the maturational stages of zygomaticomaxillary sutures (ZMS) on the response to maxillary protraction.A total of 40 Class III patients were treated retrospectively with either a combination of rapid maxillary expansion and ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Then why not mse with alt ramec to loosen the other sutures, and then bamp?

 

[retard]

Then why not mse with alt ramec to loosen the other sutures, and then bamp?

mse doesn’t loosen the sutures significantly

 

[Deleted member 9467]

Hm, have there been any studies on this or just based on your experience or some other factor?

I think I read a study that I agree with, someone’s opinion regarding expansion and sutures.

they said palate expansion could “prime” the osteogenic cells in sutures for causing potentially faster growth in completely unfused sutures, which in the process lessens the dental compensation that u typically get it u do palate expansion + FM, but that is all it does, is prime the cells, and there isn’t a (significant) physical distraction of the suture

what do you think about that idea?

would love to know if this is true

 

[hairyballscel]

MSE can open circumaxillary sutures.

@retard rope if he is right tbh, you've given me a heart attack in the past week with this mse is cope stuff jfl

 

[retard]

@retard rope if he is right tbh, you've given me a heart attack in the past week with this mse is cope stuff jfl

don’t let it fuel ur cope bro, @Aeons is 15, if he doesn’t get good results no one probably will (for forward growth)

 

[Deleted member 6382]

don’t let it fuel ur cope bro, @Aeons is 15, if he doesn’t get good results no one probably will (for forward growth)

He got so much movement that he had to stop because it was getting too much
You probably mean the aesthetic results wasnt what he had hoped for

 

[retard]

He got so much movement that he had to stop because it was getting too much
You probably mean the aesthetic results wasnt what he had hoped for

he got a lot of tooth movement because he pulled on his teeth, which offers 0 aesthetic benefit, and 0 functional considering he already had an overbite to begin with

 

[Deleted member 5349]

It’s great for mouth width and giving you a massive 12 toothed smile, which is what I’m gonna get it for

 

[JFM05]

Tbh it is saddens me to make this post but MSE + FM is probably not very good. There have been loads of false information put forth by orthodontists regarding MSE and its capabilities along with other people's false claims who have gotten MSE and its effects. (@varbrah who claimed 5 mm forward growth while only pulling for 8 hours a day while never providing the xrays he claimed he got JFL)

The first blow to MSE was realizing it was not a really bone borne like claimed, and that it is just a regular tooth borne puller (basically the effect as the og @CopeAndRope puller)

Comparison of two maxillary protraction protocols: tooth-borne versus bone-anchored protraction facemask treatment - Progress in Orthodontics

Background Protraction facemask has been advocated for treatment of class III malocclusion with maxillary deficiency. Studies using tooth-borne rapid palatal expansion (RPE) appliance as anchorage have experienced side effects such as forward movement of the maxillary molars, excessive...

progressinorthodontics.springeropen.com

Here is a study done on facemask with RME, and the FM is attached to the hyrax. 2.9 mm of forward growth was noted after treatment

They also did a bone anchored modified hyrax group using mini implants just like MSE, and pulled from the same location MSE pulls from.

Guess how much forward growth the "bone anchored" group got?






3mm, brutal





so adding "bone anchorage" gave .1 more mm jfl, other studies that are truly bone anchored, such as BAMP use 1/3 of the force of tooth borne facepullers, and get double the forward growth.

This was the first downfall of MSE + FM, secondly it was the once again falsely propagated idea that MSE opens up the circummaxillary sutures, and the disarticulation of the sutures allows for much faster protraction.

Effects of rapid maxillary expansion on the cranial and circummaxillary sutures

The aim of this study was to determine whether the orthopedic forces of rapid maxillary expansion cause significant quantitative changes in the cranial and the circummaxillary sutures.Twenty patients (mean age, 12.3 ± 1.9 years) who required rapid ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Rapid maxillary expansion produced significant width increases in the intermaxillary, internasal, maxillonasal, frontomaxillary, and frontonasal sutures, whereas the frontozygomatic, zygomaticomaxillary, zygomaticotemporal, and pterygomaxillary sutures showed nonsignificant changes.

Basically palate expansion does jack shit for the circummaxillary sutures (the sutures where forward growth is generated at), there are also many studies that contemplate if palate expansion even aids in maxilla protraction, and while still controversial it is leaning towards the side that it does not.

The effects of maxillary protraction therapy with or without rapid palatal expansion: a prospective, randomized clinical trial - PubMed

The results of this continuing 5-year clinical trial indicate that early facemask therapy, with or without palatal expansion, is effective to correct skeletal Class III malocclusions.

pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

So now, MSE doesn't do shit to open the sutural system + it is tooth borne, so it really has no advantages over a puller like CopeAndRope's, but any form of tooth borne protraction is really shit for anyone over the age of 13 if there isn't an actual underbite present


It was a good run boyos, but it seems the holy grail of looksmaxxing has yet to be found

disclaimer: mse is still okay in niche scenarios like if u have a generally narrow face, but if u don't, you wouldnt benefit from maxilla widening that much, and facepulling isnt viable, so there would be really no reason to get it unless it was for breathing, esp considering when u have to diastemamaxx for several months

nr. I'm getting SME and it will change a lot. Plus, Im 15 and am going to Dr Ting. I can only mew w front and middle, but Im pretty sure I can get a good chnage.

 

[JFM05]

It’s great for mouth width and giving you a massive 12 toothed smile, which is what I’m gonna get it for

same. Im expanding from 39 to 45mm skeletal, and then tipping my teeth from inwards to outwards. My total imw will be like 50mm after. I'm pretty sure mse in itself will help w under eye. Plus, Im incisor chewing and mewing w front and middle.

 

[JFM05]

mse doesn’t loosen the sutures significantly

yes it does bro. All of them and new research shows it releasing not just splitting the midpalatal and circumitory ones.

 

[hairyballscel]

don’t let it fuel ur cope bro, @Aeons is 15, if he doesn’t get good results no one probably will (for forward growth)

what if i can get microimplants with mse?

 

[RichardwillImprove]

he got a lot of tooth movement because he pulled on his teeth, which offers 0 aesthetic benefit, and 0 functional considering he already had an overbite to begin with

he said his upper mid face moved if we find out by how much it would give great intel. plus i find it insane how a kid like u knows more then legit professionals keep it up son.

 

[Deleted member 6423]

same. Im expanding from 39 to 45mm skeletal, and then tipping my teeth from inwards to outwards. My total imw will be like 50mm after. I'm pretty sure mse in itself will help w under eye. Plus, Im incisor chewing and mewing w front and middle.

how are you gonna tip your molars outward?

 

[Deleted member 6423]

@retard

is it cope for ccw rotation also?

 

[retard]

@retard

is it cope for ccw rotation also?

if you get surgical assist - no
if not, who knows maybe

 

[Deleted member 6423]

if you get surgical assist - no
if not, who knows maybe

and this is gigalow iq but do yk of any ways to possibly the split suture without sarpe or mse?

 

[Sergio-OMS]

and this is gigalow iq but do yk of any ways to possibly the split suture without sarpe or mse?

Not in adult patients

 

[Deleted member 3990]

and this is gigalow iq but do yk of any ways to possibly the split suture without sarpe or mse?

 

[Deleted member 6423]

@Sergio-OMS
?

 

[Sergio-OMS]

View attachment 886643@Sergio-OMS
?

This is basically what SARPE is about.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

This is basically what SARPE is about.

What kind of chainsaw do you use for SARPE ?

 

[Sergio-OMS]

What kind of chainsaw do you use for SARPE ?

Haha.

I use a mectron piezosurgery and chisels

 

[ascentium]

why did the mandible shorten during the treatment period? It’s actually worse than you think in OP. Most of the movement is mandibular.

 

[ascentium]

You can.

still quite homeopathic.

why did the mandible shift back in the first study? Help me understand maestro.

 

[retard]

why did the mandible shorten during the treatment period? It’s actually worse than you think in OP. Most of the movement is mandibular.
View attachment 979068

just the backward force applied by the fm, it has nothing to do with mse, the jaw just shifts/rotates back it doesn’t literally shrink

 

[ascentium]

just the backward force applied by the fm, it has nothing to do with mse, the jaw just shifts/rotates back it doesn’t literally shrink

well why did that shrinkage get factored into the cephalometric analysis if it wasn’t relevant to the orthodontic correction?

 

[retard]

well why did that shrinkage get factored into the cephalometric analysis if it wasn’t relevant to the orthodontic correction?

it is because if u shift the jaw backwards, it shifts the teeth too in their relative position to the uppers

 

[ascentium]

it is because if u shift the jaw backwards, it shifts the teeth too in their relative position to the uppers

so I should probably use the forwardontics bow with my mse.

 

[retard]

so I should probably use the forwardontics bow with my mse.

Yep the entire point of that bow is for that specific issue