Is jutting legit for CCW rotation or not?

Babushkacatlady

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The suture is possibly the most convenient site of growth, but overall the palate is designed to adapt in accordance to the loads the teeth are subjected to. The teeth can quite freely shift through the alveolar bone and the shape of the bone will respond to that.

View attachment 979704
Yes this is indeed the case. Sutures aren't the only mechanism of bone growth especially in the facial bones. One can literally grow bone anywhere with micro fracture and/or cell signaling provided it is at least mostly consistent. This isn't just in the alveolar bone either, it can be in the basal bone too, as it must be noted that the alveolar bone ends around the placement of the teeth.
 
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Yes this is indeed the case. Sutures aren't the only mechanism of bone growth especially in the facial bones. One can literally grow bone anywhere with micro fracture and/or cell signaling provided it is at least mostly consistent. This isn't just in the alveolar bone either, it can be in the basal bone too, as it must be noted that the alveolar bone ends around the placement of the teeth.
DId you jut forward all the time or mostly upwards force on the first molars/premolars?
 
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DId you jut forward all the time or mostly upwards force on the first molars/premolars?
Jutted forward and some upward force on premolars and first molar area. The key when jutting is you don't want to go to an edge-to-edge bite, you just want to slide the mandible forward maintaining the molar/premolar contact until you hit the upper incisors, if that makes sense.
 
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Jutted forward and some upward force on premolars and first molar area. The key when jutting is you don't want to go to an edge-to-edge bite, you just want to slide the mandible forward maintaining the molar/premolar contact until you hit the upper incisors, if that makes sense.
So basically you don't really want to jut forward against the incisors, instead you want to "latch" against the molars/premolars and then apply low amount of force forward while also applying even force upward?
 
betamanlet

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So basically you don't really want to jut forward against the incisors, instead you want to "latch" against the molars/premolars and then apply low amount of force forward while also applying even force upward?
He is saying to jut against the backside of the upper incisors, instead of edge-to-edge/tip-to-tip incisor bite, then to additionally press upward with the premolars a little.
 
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antiantifa

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He is saying to jut against the backside of the upper incisors, instead of edge-to-edge/tip-to-tip incisor bite, then to additionally press upward with the premolars a little.
Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.
 
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Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.
Try to use your lip seal to suck the mandible against the maxillary arch. That way no active force will have to be used.
 
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Okay, I've already been doing it for a while, I can already feel the typical TMJ incoming. I am going to lower my intensity a lot, but my problem is when the intensity is low I feel my mandible shaking against my teeth, like briefly disconnecting with the teeth.
There should be minimal intensity, it should be borderline passive with minimal muscle strain. But if this is a new posture, you might feel some tension there that should improve with time.
 
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antiantifa

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Try to use your lip seal to suck the mandible against the maxillary arch. That way no active force will have to be used.
Seems counter-intuitive, I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down. Also I can feel it using the muscles attached to the styloid:



This would probably causes CCW rotation of the ears which is exactly what I don't want considering how CCW rotated my ears already are.

Look at this table of correlation between muscle CSA and various facial shapes:



As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height. The cranial base angle and prognathism is meant by this:

Where negative correlation is ideal for forward movement of lower third relative to the maxilla.


Interesting fact is just by looking at these correlations you can see that short face syndrome is caused by masseters(shorten both upper and lower face) and to some extent by temporalis(shorten upper face, but not lower third).

Overall the lateral pterygoids seem like the ideal muscle to hypertrophy for aesthetics for men and to also prevent most craniofacial disorders in all people.

"Putative bite force from the medial pterygoid muscle alone correlated positively with mandibular length and inversely with upper face height. When muscle and tooth moment arms were considered together, a system efficient at producing force on the first molar was statistically associated with a face having a large intergonial width, small intercondylar width, narrow dental arch, forward maxilla, and forward mandible."



There should be minimal intensity, it should be borderline passive with minimal muscle strain. But if this is a new posture, you might feel some tension there that should improve with time.
I'll see what happens overtime. I just hope my ears don't CCW rotate even more. Because I pushed my whole face forward with the tongue, the lower ear followed and I have elven ears basically.
 
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betamanlet

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I can only do this lip seal vacuum by bringing the lower tip of my tongue down.
You should also be able to do it by sliding the tip a bit higher, to the rugae or even slightly above them.

As you can see the pterygoids are the only muscles significantly correlated to shorter cranial base length.
Only lateral pterygoids strongly associated with increase in lower third height and decrease in upper face height.
Interesting. Seems like there definitely is something to this.
 
antiantifa

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You should also be able to do it by sliding the tip a bit higher, to the rugae or even slightly above them.


Interesting. Seems like there definitely is something to this.


Makes sense in picture above.



Also in this picture you can see the sphenomandibularis muscle.

Also if we consider bone as a semi-solid matrix, there is no need for 24/7 loading, loading every few hours will force the matrix towards a certain shape, which will continue signalling for hours.

You can see from this graph of a study that it is actually undesirable to permanently load bones for bone remodeling, in fact smaller bone loads with smaller recovery times produced the most bone growth/bone strength(I am assuming bone strength mostly comes from growth), a whopping 350% increase:



Maybe Mike Mew and the whole TGW forum have been going about it the wrong way? Maybe mewing is counter-productive for long-term results and instead just properly swallowing which happens multiple times a minute and even during sleep is sufficient or even better than hard/soft continuous mewing.

I will experiment with this, instead of jutting constantly or keeping my tongue in a certain way I'll just relax it and then occasionally bite forwards + side-wards with a cloth.

I'll also try to improve my swallowing technique even further, right now I am still subconsciously swallowing using the rear third of the tongue because of Mike's BS, I am retraining my tongue to swallow forward while expanding sideways at the same time, also my mandible slightly uses lateral pterygoids with each swallow.

"Despite receiving less mechanical stimulation, the recovery group exhibited 73% greater work to failure than the group loaded for all three periods. Another benefit of the recovery protocol included a more advantageous geometric change in the ulnar diaphysis during the final stages of the experiment. Desensitization to mechanical loading appears to be an unavoidable consequence of mechanical stimulation, and it occurs on several time scales in bone."

Here bone strength/mass/re-modelling rate is significantly higher with less mechanical stimulation compared to constant mechnical stimulation. In fact as seen, the constant mechanical stimulation lead to bone resorption.

As for how this is relevant to the maxilla shape: it is quite simple, you can't push the maxilla forward without growing bones at the rear, you can't just leave a gaping hole. To me it makes sense that sphenoid growth will cause the maxilla to move forward, the ramus to increase in height and the posterior maxilla to increase in height as well.

I think ideal profile maximizes growth of the face:






 
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clockwiseRotator

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I'm low iq what do you mean by jutting? Holding lower teeth in front of upper? How does that put force anywhere?
 
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@betamanlet
@Babushkacatlady



Nothing suggests their faces stopped growing with age. If anything, the oldest men typically had biggest faces. Facial size is also the biggest cue to age in humans.
 
Babushkacatlady

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@antiantifa

You bring up some interesting points. I personally think you need a combination of both light and consistent and a bit heavier intermittent forces for optimal effects. Most people mew too hard in my view and this causes the hard mewing thing where everyone just winds up deepening their palate, especially since the back third of the palate has the most porus and thin bone. I have seen countless stories by this point about how people focused too much on the back third and messed up their face. The tongue should be very light, kinda like a tumor slowly expanding and warping the skull as this isn't a pushing exercise as most believe.

I would be skeptical of looking at bone strength research because most of that just has to do with more bone matrix formation (Wolffs law) which just thickens the bone on the inside with no to minimal change on the exterior, since we are trying to change bone shape and position rather than strength.

Adult faces DO NOT stop growing contrary to popular belief, it is just that this rate significantly slows down. Take any man at age 20 and at age 30, the structure of the face looks significantly different. Few at 20 look like men, they still look like boys, but the same can't be said at 30 (but who knows maybe the estrogens in the water might change that).

Faces were made to constantly grow for a variety of reasons. One was that since the teeth were constantly being worn down, the face had to compensate by growing so that you wouldn't wind up with short face syndrome. Another was to compensate for minor injuries that one acquired through life. Yet another was just general adaptability to changing soft tissue structures like the airway and growing brain.
Hormones like testosterone also may take some effect here, perhaps targeting certain regions of the face more than others .

While growth is a good thing, the direction/way it grows is arguably more important. Mouthbreathers who fail to correct it WILL get worse with age even if they are adults, the rate is just slower. This is why you see a lot of jaw surgery relapse, along muscles pulling the face back to where it was. One must then ask themselves, "if those muscles can pull the face back, can't those same muscles pull it more optimally?"
 
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antiantifa

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@antiantifa

You bring up some interesting points. I personally think you need a combination of both light and consistent and a bit heavier intermittent forces for optimal effects. Most people mew too hard in my view and this causes the hard mewing thing where everyone just winds up deepening their palate, especially since the back third of the palate has the most porus and thin bone. I have seen countless stories by this point about how people focused too much on the back third and messed up their face.

I would be skeptical of looking at bone strength research because most of that just has to do with more bone matrix formation (Wolffs law) which just thickens the bone on the inside with no to minimal change on the exterior, since we are trying to change bone shape and position rather than strength.

Adult faces DO NOT stop growing contrary to popular belief, it is just that this rate significantly slows down. Take any man at age 20 and at age 30, the structure of the face looks significantly different. Few at 20 look like men, they still look like boys, but the same can't be said at 30 (but who knows maybe the estrogens in the water might change that).

Faces were made to constantly grow for a variety of reasons. One was that since the teeth were constantly being worn down, the face had to compensate by growing so that you wouldn't wind up with short face syndrome. Another was to compensate for minor injuries that one acquired through life. Yet another was just general adaptability to changing soft tissue structures like the airway and growing brain.
Actually this is something well researched: constant force retards suture growth, while cyclical force increases it.

I know for a fact my sutures have opened because of mewing because my whole face has become flexible, I can move my bones in any direction and there are all kinds of cracking sounds being produced.

If I pull on my maxilla for example I get cracking sounds, then they stop even if I pull more, however if I push on it, it'll crack again. And I can constantly crack the maxilla bone like this by pulling, pushing, pulling, pushing. Of course I don't because I don't want to break off half of my face and die.


"Thus, the oscillatory component of cyclic force or more precisely the resulting cyclic strain experienced in sutures is a potent stimulus for sutural growth. The increased sutural growth by cyclic mechanical strain in the tensed NFS and compressed PMS suggests that both microscale tension and compression induce anabolic sutural growth response."


"After validating the device, cyclic (2.5Hz) tensile loads were applied unilaterally to the NFS of abattoir pig heads (n=6), with strain gages on multiple sutures. Similar loading was applied to 3-month old live pigs (Sus scrofa, n=4 and 1 sham) 30 minutes/day for 5 days.
Daily spurts of cyclic load caused sutural strain throughout the skull. The regime likely enhances suture growth and may be therapeutically useful."

The study I previously used wasn't on sutures, but still showed an impressive 15% increase in total bone area(2D), the 3D effect on the volume would probably be even higher than 15%, though my trig math is horrible.

Btw the study on the suture growth on pigs was done on young pigs.

Specifically this one:
 
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@Babushkacatlady

The thing is how does the mandible even grow? I am sure it's sutures are fully fused even in young adults, while a lot of sutures around maxilla and zygo stay permenantly open/half-open for lifetime.

Some kind of a weird way:



It's funny cause after I looksminned from too much chewing I had a lot of pain at the rear of my whole mandible, then my ramus became giga wide in a few months.

Now it's like bone-to-bone 4 cm wide, so I guess jaw loading can still cause growth in the mandible even in adults.
 
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Babushkacatlady

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@antiantifa

I don't think the main mode of optimal change in the maxilla is sutural for an adult, I think it comes on an individual cellular basis with maybe some small sutural changes. The sutures were also designed as shock absorbers from tough chewing and some research shows that sutures prematurely close if there is inadequate stimulation. Chewing can also stimulate sutures too since it is cyclic.

The mandible grows on a cellular basis, where cells are removed from the back and added onto the front, not suturally.

Other cranial bones changing are mainly sutural with some remodeling shape changes (like the cranial base after puberty).
 
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betamanlet

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I know for a fact my sutures have opened because of mewing because my whole face has become flexible, I can move my bones in any direction and there are all kinds of cracking sounds being produced.
In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.
 
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Makes sense that if the mandibular molars are pushed backwards by the maxillary arch, the mandible would respond as shown in the pic, in order to create additional room in between the molars and the ramii.
I think this is part of the equation. We also should note the ramus "uprights" (moves back relative to the forward growing mandible) during pubertal growth, making room for 3rd molars (wisdom teeth), or at least it should.
 
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In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.
Idk, I can't tell, there are multiple cracks, I think mostly around sphenoid? Also my left maxillary-zygo suture feels open, but the right one I can't feel the hole.
 
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@antiantifa

I don't think the main mode of optimal change in the maxilla is sutural for an adult, I think it comes on an individual cellular basis with maybe some small sutural changes. The sutures were also designed as shock absorbers from tough chewing and some research shows that sutures prematurely close if there is inadequate stimulation. Chewing can also stimulate sutures too since it is cyclic.

The mandible grows on a cellular basis, where cells are removed from the back and added onto the front, not suturally.

Other cranial bones changing are mainly sutural with some remodeling shape changes (like the cranial base after puberty).
Whether the growth is through sutures or direct bone growth, it's undeniable that the adult face grows with age as you said, it's also undeniable that cyclical forces, proper nutrition and maybe even certain anabolics/growth hormone-analogues would optimize that growth.



As you can see in the graph above even at 30 years old the peak of mandible growth hasn't been reached.

27.5mm at 35 years old, 25mm at 20 years old, 22mm at 10 years old.
Basically growth in jaw size from 10-20 is about the same as 20-35.

And this is only mandible length in average adults who don't stimulate bone growth that much(don't forcefully swallow every few seconds, don't eat hard food, barely do volume of chewing).

This study shows growth hormone grows mandible in GH-deficient adults and that the age of initiation doesn't matter:

Another interesting fact is that people with gigantism have facial growth through-out their lifespan.

But it's not the aesthetic type of growth:

 
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I HAD BRACES WITH ELASTICS, AND 4 MOLARS AND A WISDOM TOOTH REMOVAL
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
 
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@Babushkacatlady

Also check out this interesting study:


"Age-related changes of the mid-facial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton."

If resorption can happen at posterior maxilla, I am sure deposition can happen as well.
 
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NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
I HAD BRACES WITH ELASTICS, AND 4 MOLARS AND A WISDOM TOOTH REMOVAL
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO
F for Respect, fallen comrade.
 
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@Babushkacatlady

Sorry for the spam, this study directly shows that in adults there is possible growth in midpalatal and pterygopalatine sutures:

"Conclusions: Midpalatal suture was successfully split by MSE in late adolescents, and the opening was almost perfectly parallel in a sagittal direction. Regarding the extent of transverse asymmetry of the split, on average one half of ANS moved more than the contralateral one by 1.1 mm. Pterygopalatine suture was split in its lower region by MSE, as the pyramidal process was pulled out from the pterygoid process. Patient gender and age had a negligible influence on suture opening for the age group considered in the study."

14-26 years old were the participants age.

This is also a very good blog to read:


"There are conflicting views about the closure of midpalatal suture. The chronological age does not seem to be a reliable indicator for a real morphological status of the midpalatal suture closure. According to earlier studies, sutures of the cranial vault start to obliterate during the third decade of life. According to Persson and Thilander15 earliest obliteration can be seen in the posterior palate of a 15-year-old girl and there may be no obliteration at all in a 27-year-old female. Earliest obliteration in male was found in a 21 years and no obliteration at all in a 32-year-old male. According to Sperber,16 obliteration may start in adolescence, but complete fusion is rarely found before 30 years of age."

This might be the suture I keep hearing cracking in, it always felt around sphenoid. The bone around the cracking suture also directly connected to the pterygoid muscle, because I can use this muscle to crack it in both directions(forward by swallowing really hard, backwards by pushing on my mandible).
 
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antiantifa

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In which all places do you experience sutural cracking? I only experience these in my posterior skull. I wonder if wearing retractive headgear every night as a child resulted in premature sutural ossification in the circummaxillary sutures.
Try maybe opening this suture? Just push against your mandible while jutting your mandible forward, then reverse it by thumb-pulling on your maxilla forward, this works really well for me, often I am afraid of using too much force for fear of literally ripping my maxilla out.

The more I do this, the harder the cracks become and the more movement I feel. It's a scary exercise ngl.

The exact way is :

Push 3 seconds against the mandible while jutting as counter-force(keep mandible position relatively stable, don't over-extend it), then pull for 3 seconds against the palate upwards and forwards with your thumbs. I think if you do this for 15 minutes or even shorter you will start hearing cracking in your face.
 
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Whether the growth is through sutures or direct bone growth, it's undeniable that the adult face grows with age as you said, it's also undeniable that cyclical forces, proper nutrition and maybe even certain anabolics/growth hormone-analogues would optimize that growth.



As you can see in the graph above even at 30 years old the peak of mandible growth hasn't been reached.

27.5mm at 35 years old, 25mm at 20 years old, 22mm at 10 years old.
Basically growth in jaw size from 10-20 is about the same as 20-35.

And this is only mandible length in average adults who don't stimulate bone growth that much(don't forcefully swallow every few seconds, don't eat hard food, barely do volume of chewing).

This study shows growth hormone grows mandible in GH-deficient adults and that the age of initiation doesn't matter:

Another interesting fact is that people with gigantism have facial growth through-out their lifespan.

But it's not the aesthetic type of growth:

Pure mandibular growth alone will not lead to the aesthetic outcome most people want as this pic and others of gigantism/acromegaly show. Even people who use high amounts of GH long term, show this. In my view most positive changes will come from the bones changing shape and position with time rather than just growth. Chewing won't lead to the growth shown on the graph above, it will specifically deposit bone on the mandible where the stresses occur and the muscle insertion points.

Also check out this interesting study:

"Age-related changes of the mid-facial skeleton occurred independently of gender, but at various time points in different locations. The observed changes seem to be driven by a bone resorption center located in the posterior maxilla, rather than by a rotational movement of the facial skeleton."

If resorption can happen at posterior maxilla, I am sure deposition can happen as well.
When the posterior maxilla resorbs with no direct change to the anterior, it will cause something similar to clockwise rotation, due to the fulcrum of change being somewhere in the middle of the maxilla and the anterior must compensate with a clockwise-like rotation. My take on this is:

Anterior resorbed/moved up, posterior therefore deposited/moved down= CCW, can lead to open bite

Posterior resorbed/moved up, anterior therefore deposited/moved down= CW, can lead to deep bite

Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:


Sorry for the spam, this study directly shows that in adults there is possible growth in midpalatal and pterygopalatine sutures:

"Conclusions: Midpalatal suture was successfully split by MSE in late adolescents, and the opening was almost perfectly parallel in a sagittal direction. Regarding the extent of transverse asymmetry of the split, on average one half of ANS moved more than the contralateral one by 1.1 mm. Pterygopalatine suture was split in its lower region by MSE, as the pyramidal process was pulled out from the pterygoid process. Patient gender and age had a negligible influence on suture opening for the age group considered in the study."

14-26 years old were the participants age.

This is also a very good blog to read:


For sure MSE for example proves that this can be done in adults. Even slower expanders have shown this. These sutures aren't really meant to close under normal conditions of cyclic load like heavy chewing but these days they close early cause nobody chews their food. Another thing is that the maxilla will move a mm or two forward from expansion alone because it jams the maxilla against the zygomatic buttress and the reciprocal force will wedge it forward a bit.
 
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@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:




NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.
 
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Pure mandibular growth alone will not lead to the aesthetic outcome most people want as this pic and others of gigantism/acromegaly show. Even people who use high amounts of GH long term, show this. In my view most positive changes will come from the bones changing shape and position with time rather than just growth. Chewing won't lead to the growth shown on the graph above, it will specifically deposit bone on the mandible where the stresses occur and the muscle insertion points.


When the posterior maxilla resorbs with no direct change to the anterior, it will cause something similar to clockwise rotation, due to the fulcrum of change being somewhere in the middle of the maxilla and the anterior must compensate with a clockwise-like rotation. My take on this is:

Anterior resorbed/moved up, posterior therefore deposited/moved down= CCW, can lead to open bite

Posterior resorbed/moved up, anterior therefore deposited/moved down= CW, can lead to deep bite

Anterior resorbed/moved up+posterior maintained or even slightly resorbed/moved up= Optimal and will lead to midface shortening, higher cheekbones, less round and well supported eyes. This is from that post on TGW, which would require a lot of upward mid facial compression from light forces:
View attachment 982657



For sure MSE for example proves that this can be done in adults. Even slower expanders have shown this. These sutures aren't really meant to close under normal conditions of cyclic load like heavy chewing but these days they close early cause nobody chews their food. Another thing is that the maxilla will move a mm or two forward from expansion alone because it jams the maxilla against the zygomatic buttress and the reciprocal force will wedge it forward a bit.
I agree that pure mandibular growth will not work, but what I am thinking about is that posterior addition of bone = CCW rotation of the whole face.

Look at the media file I sent to betamanlet, my sutures are cracking and moving, after doing that exercise I now feel pain between my sphenoid and maxilla, specifically it feels the most around palatine/maxilla/sphenoid. I am sure it is inflamed now and will grow, if I don't keep moving it daily and hard swallowing it will for sure fuse because of inflammation.

The info I sent shows that even in adults up to 35 years old the suture can stay open, but even in young people as young as 14 it can be closed.
 
Babushkacatlady

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@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:


View attachment 982663

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.
lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.
 
antiantifa

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lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.
Lol just max volume it, the cracks you're hearing aren't me moving I am perfectly still, those are my bones being pulled and pushed multiple times.
 
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lol don't fucking die. I think I did hear something slight though.
Either way I'll make an update here in like a month or at least I notice actual difference in my face. We'll see if this theory is legit or not. I think I've already grown my face out a lot:



About same weight/height. I know it's not the same angle, but there's undeniable difference between chin prominence. I've also always known since beginning my mandible begun inside my neck muscle, now I can stack about 1-2 fingers between gonion and neck muscle.
 
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NVM
 
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PURE ARYAN GENETICS

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I've been saying this for a while but people here parrot the tmj bs all the time. if you assume correct posture (giga chintuck and chest out for birdcels), your mandible hangs slightly forward naturally (basically a jut). once again it's just good posture and good muscle tone (eg tongue). and posture is just good muscle tone plus good habits (not sleeping on a bunch of pillows, not sitting in front of monitor that's too far away/too low all day, not wearing heavy backpacks full of useless shit as kids, having shoes that don't fuck up your feet/torque chain in your body etc). it's the reason I made a custom standing pc setup that I use barefoot
Now that I think of it, there was something in that article series from Portland's TMJ clinic that relates to the study:

View attachment 978710
brutal blackpill. it really was my personality all along :feelswhy:

anyway great article
 
PURE ARYAN GENETICS

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@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:


View attachment 982663

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.
are you thumb pulling or what :feelswat:
 
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@betamanlet

Idk if you'll be able to hear it, but after every-time I say crack I crack my palate, my phone isn't very sensitive to sound, but you can actually hear the minuscule cracks, there's like 2-5 of them at once, especially the last one is very audible:


View attachment 982663

NOTE I DO NOT CONDONE OPENING UR SUTURES WITHOUT UR DOCTOR IF U KILL URSELF ON ACIDDENT THATS ON U NOT MY FAULT THIS WARNING IS FOR ALL READING THIS THREAD.
Damn that sounds spooky.

Either way I'll make an update here in like a month or at least I notice actual difference in my face. We'll see if this theory is legit or not. I think I've already grown my face out a lot:



About same weight/height. I know it's not the same angle, but there's undeniable difference between chin prominence. I've also always known since beginning my mandible begun inside my neck muscle, now I can stack about 1-2 fingers between gonion and neck muscle.
It'll be interesting to see if you'll keep changing all the way towards something like this:


That may be a bit too westernized silhouette though. What's your ethnicity?

brutal blackpill. it really was my personality all along :feelswhy:
Lol!

 
antiantifa

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Damn that sounds spooky.


It'll be interesting to see if you'll keep changing all the way towards something like this:

View attachment 982889
That may be a bit too westernized silhouette though. What's your ethnicity?


Lol!

View attachment 982878
Not going to lie, to me I look really ugly in that morph, so I hope I don't change to that, but then again based on my avi you can already see I am a big fan of high gonial angles, not short ones.

My ethnicity is Monogolo-Russian.
 
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If you don't mind I took the before and after pics of this morph and drew some very quick maxillary and mandibular anatomical structures sketches and superimposed them:
View attachment 982951View attachment 982952View attachment 982954
IMO ramus is simply too short in the morph, which makes me look weird.

Strangely enough my ramus actually goes through my ear if that makes sense and my palatal occlusion has shorter angle(more horizontal).

I think the perfect morph would actually if lost my nasal hump and gained ramus length with some teeth rotation, without any more forward movement of my chin.
 
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Not going to lie, to me I look really ugly in that morph, so I hope I don't change to that, but then again based on my avi you can already see I am a big fan of high gonial angles, not short ones.

My ethnicity is Monogolo-Russian.
IMO ramus is simply too short in the morph, which makes me look weird.
I agree now that you pointed it out. I seem to have a fringe sense of aesthetics anyway, people rarely agree with my edits. I've also noticed that you quickly become face-blind while working on an edit. Often you'll make a change that looks good in the moment, only to return to it the following day and wonder what the hell you were thinking.
 
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@betamanlet
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:

 
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@betamanlet
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:

Yeah I need these changes to rotate my ears.
 
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Yeah I need these changes to rotate my ears.
Ears too elfish? I recommend neck training. The sternocleidomastoid attaches right behind the ear (mastoid process) and this will push the bottom part of the ears out.
 
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@betamanlet
@antiantifa

I can't remember where I found it but here is an interesting gif that shows changes in the maxilla. This is superimposed in the S-N plane so it doesn't show changes in the sphenoid:

That's one of my favorite gifs. I have no idea where it came from though or what the context around it is. Is this craniostructurally valid movement, with the dynamics between all bones taken in account? Or is it just a loose morph? Interesting in any case. Would be amazing to end up with such movement.
 
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That's one of my favorite gifs. I have no idea where it came from though or what the context around it is. Is this craniostructurally valid movement, with the dynamics between all bones taken in account? Or is it just a loose morph? Interesting in any case. Would be amazing to end up with such movement.
I don't where it came from exactly know either, just had it saved. Tried reverse image searching it but it turned up nothing. I think this study may shed some light on it though https://www.researchgate.net/public...predicts_variation_in_internal_skeletal_shape

Found this post on lookism too (https://lookism.net/threads/on-the-cranial-base.381027/), interesting read, with this gif and this pic:


It looks pretty valid to me based on the changes. The occipital bone is moving up, and if superimposed on F-N instead of S-N the sphenoid is also moving up. The nasal bone and nasal floor change, the maxillary sinus reshaping/"cheek line", and the forwards and up movement of the whole palate and upper incisors, and the cranial base angle becoming acute is consistent to what I've seen and believe to be correct so I think its legit.
 
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I don't where it came from exactly know either, just had it saved. Tried reverse image searching it but it turned up nothing. I think this study may shed some light on it though https://www.researchgate.net/public...predicts_variation_in_internal_skeletal_shape

Found this post on lookism too (https://lookism.net/threads/on-the-cranial-base.381027/), interesting read, with this gif and this pic:
View attachment 987268

It looks pretty valid to me based on the changes. The occipital bone is moving up, and if superimposed on F-N instead of S-N the sphenoid is also moving up. The nasal bone and nasal floor change, the maxillary sinus reshaping/"cheek line", and the forwards and up movement of the whole palate and upper incisors, and the cranial base angle becoming acute is consistent to what I've seen and believe to be correct so I think its legit.
Interesting. I think you were right about the dual bite by the way. I've been forming my chewing pattern around the jutting motion now too, crushing the food in between the side surfaces of the incisors and canines (rather than in between the top surface of the molars). Haven't had any TMJ popping so far. This has turned out to demand a lot from the lateral pterygoids, it's clear that they had been under-utilized all this time.
 
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Babushkacatlady

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Interesting. I think you were right about the dual bite by the way. I've been forming my chewing pattern around the jutting motion now too, crushing the food in between the side surfaces of the incisors and canines (rather than in between the top surface of the molars). Haven't had any TMJ popping so far. This has turned out to demand a lot from the lateral pterygoids, it's clear that they had been under-utilized all this time.
Good to hear. The orthotropic device called the Biobloc stage 3 has people hold a jutting position for 18-20 hours per day initially, then people just wearing it over night. It is said that the TMJ itself takes at least 6 months to remodel to the new position and the muscles to change their position and shape up to a year to year and a half after that to keep that position stable.
 
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antiantifa

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Ears too elfish? I recommend neck training. The sternocleidomastoid attaches right behind the ear (mastoid process) and this will push the bottom part of the ears out.
Already do neck training often.
 
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@Babushkacatlady
@betamanlet








These muscles above are all much more relevant for cranial base than masticatory muscles.

In palatal clefts, the muscles of the soft palate are hypoplastic
In this case the soft palate muscles are the levator/tensor palatini,and the muscle surrounding them.


Radiographs of a platybasic individual (A) demonstrating an obtuse cranial-base angle (1448) and radiographs of a nonplatybasic patient (B) demonstrating a more acute cranial-base angle (1168). Ba-S-N reference points indicate the cranial-base angle; S-N, anterior cranial base; Ba-S, posterior cranial base. Ba basion; S sella; N nasion. Less
The prevalence of platybasia was significantly higher in the VPI group (28.7%) than in the normal controls (2.4%)
VPI = Velopharyngeal Incompetence = weak levator and tensor palatini muscles.



If you swallow a certain way, where you tense the lateral pterygoid, the inferior anterior tongue muscles, the palatoglossus and the levator palatini, you can feel the temporal bone being pulled downwards at the inferior anterior region.

Currently my temporal bone is very CCW rotated. I wonder if CCW rotated temporal bone equals CW rotated maxilla?
 
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