Let's settle this about MSE once and for all

[Deleted member 685]

Most of us aren't gonna get MSE, it's too expensive and even then there's barely any orthodontists that perform it. Wouldn't it be a better idea to just use this appliance @nelson came up with?


Afterall I mean is there really that much cosmetic difference when it comes to this and MSE and is there even sources backing the claims up?


I'm having a talk with an orthodontist soon to look for something like MSE, my reason will be improving nasal breathing.

 

[Deleted member 2846]

my boy @nelson is a straight up certified ortho now jfl

 

[Deleted member 685]

Bump

 

[Deleted member 685]

Bumperino

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Why not sMARPE ?

 

[Deleted member 685]

Why not sMARPE ?

Isn't mse a type of marpe?

in my opinion there is no difference between MSE and palate expander.
"muh MSE expands the whole maxilla while palate expander only widens the teeth arch"

Yeah it seems like bullshit looking at the studies, mse just anchors at the palate so it might have more effect on nasal breathing

 

[Dino Hamciaren]

Isn't mse a type of marpe?

Yeah it seems like bullshit looking at the studies, mse just anchors at the palate so it might have more effect on nasal breathing
View attachment 190795View attachment 190796

This is the girl's palate after the expansion. Remember you can go up to 12 mm and after the MSE reaches its maximum activations, you can use the teeth anchored hyrax expander to continue the palatal expansion, taking advanatage of the loosen sutures. While she did use a hyrax, it was to prevent relapse and not to expand even more, if recall correctly.

 

[Deleted member 685]

This is the girl's palate after the expansion. Remember you can go up to 12 mm and after the MSE reaches its maximum activations, you can use the teeth anchored hyrax expander to continue the palatal expansion, taking advanatage of the loosen sutures. While she did use a hyrax, it was to prevent relapse and not to expand even more, if recall correctly.

Right but why would this be superior to the device in the OP?

 

[Golden Glass]

•MSE is in fact, a derivation of MARPE, specifically one pioneered very recently and is thus in it’s infancy...this explains the current scarcity of the treatment.

•MSE is so bone-borne that it notably widens the zygomatic complex in before and after ct scans. No tooth-borne appliance will ever achieve this in adults. However, if all you want is cosmetic changes to zygomatic width—you might as well get ZSO, implants, or fillers. If you want some form of deep structural change as an Adult, MSE + Mewing/Myofunctional Therapy afterwords is the way to go.

•Just an FYI because I keep seeing it debated: In Adults, MSE does not seem to increase IPD at all. I say this after having superimposed MSE before and afters, with the pupils overlapping perfectly.

 

[Deleted member 685]

•MSE is in fact, a derivation of MARPE, specifically one pioneered very recently and is thus in it’s infancy...this explains the current scarcity of the treatment.

•MSE is so bone-borne that it notably the zygomatic complex in before and after ct scans. No tooth-borne appliance will ever achieve this in adults. However, if all you want is cosmetic changes to zygomatic width—you might as well get ZSO, implants, or fillers. If you want some form of deep structural change as an Adult, MSE + Mewing/Myofunctional Therapy afterwords is the way to go.

•Just an FYI because I keep seeing it debated: In Adults, MSE does not seem to increase IPD at all. I say this after having superimposed MSE before and afters, with the pupils overlapping perfectly.

Source? Or did you make this text? I feel like MSE doesn't directly expand the alveolar ridge area alot like alot of male models have (where you can see their maxilla expanding away from their teeth thanks to crazy expansion)

 

[Dino Hamciaren]

Right but why would this be superior to the device in the OP?

How is that able to split the palatal suture and cause skeletal expansion?

 

[Deleted member 685]

How is that able to split the palatal suture and cause skeletal expansion?

I thought it would because it still expands the alveolar area.

Anyways, I'll probably be able to get some sort of marpe from an orthodontist if I play it well and tell her I wanna improve my nasal breathing. I'm just curious, should I get MSE first and then the facepuller device of @CopeAndRope or the other way around?

@CopeAndRope btw, why would pulling at a 30 degree angle be ideal as opposed to others? I could understand why pulling downwards would be subideal cause it could make a midface look longer but I thought pulling slightly upwards to straight was ideal

 

[Golden Glass]

Source? Or did you make this text? I feel like MSE doesn't directly expand the alveolar ridge area alot like alot of male models have (where you can see their maxilla expanding away from their teeth thanks to crazy expansion)

•I typed that up myself just now. I’m supposed to get MSE some time within the next 2 years but have to do it in concordance with bimax to bring my maxilla up and forwards as well as fix slight canted jaws. I could either do MSE before surgery (which would mean very soon) or after, but I believe MSE would be best after surgery. I have to figure out the logistics in the coming months.

•Do you have any examples of this alveolar ridge phenomenon in male models?

I thought it would because it still expands the alveolar area.

Anyways, I'll probably be able to get some sort of marpe from an orthodontist if I play it well and tell her I wanna improve my nasal breathing. I'm just curious, should I get MSE first and then the facepuller device of @CopeAndRope or the other way around?

@CopeAndRope btw, why would pulling at a 30 degree angle be ideal as opposed to others? I could understand why pulling downwards would be subideal cause it could make a midface look longer but I thought pulling slightly upwards to straight was ideal

I personally have no idea how effective facepulling is, but any chances of effectiveness would be increased by doing it with an MSE installed, since the Anchorage is bone-borne.

 

[Deleted member 685]

•I typed that up myself just now. I’m supposed to get MSE some time within the next 2 years but have to do it in concordance with bimax to bring my maxilla up and forwards as well as fix slight canted jaws. I could either do MSE before surgery (which would mean very soon) or after, but I believe MSE would be best after surgery. I have to figure out the logistics in the coming months.

•Do you have any examples of this alveolar ridge phenomenon in male models?


I personally have no idea how effective facepulling is, but any chances of effectiveness would be increased by doing it with an MSE installed, since the Anchorage is bone-borne.

I'll send you some soon after I'm done studying. Make sure to pm me if I forget

 

[Dino Hamciaren]

I'm just curious, should I get MSE first and then the facepuller device of @CopeAndRope or the other way around?

You can use a teeth anchored facepuller and still get results (http://www.facepulling.com/adult-maxillary-protraction-a-case-study/), but with the sutures split and bone anchoring, better results will be achieved.

 

[Deleted member 685]

•I typed that up myself just now. I’m supposed to get MSE some time within the next 2 years but have to do it in concordance with bimax to bring my maxilla up and forwards as well as fix slight canted jaws. I could either do MSE before surgery (which would mean very soon) or after, but I believe MSE would be best after surgery. I have to figure out the logistics in the coming months.

•Do you have any examples of this alveolar ridge phenomenon in male models?


I personally have no idea how effective facepulling is, but any chances of effectiveness would be increased by doing it with an MSE installed, since the Anchorage is bone-borne.

This is what I meant, the maxilla being so expanded to the point it almost looks like the teeth turn backwards a bit and how the maxillary bone is protruding further forwards:

 

[Luke LLL]

MSE has greater potential when widening the actual maxilla, because it splits the maxilla suture. So If you feel like your zygos could be wider, get mse. If you feel like your palate is just too small and your maxilla is just downswung/recessed, get this appliance with a facepuller. Also as a side note I don’t know If a facepulling appliance would work with MSE, I need to figure out if you can still wear puller appliance.

 

[kota]

•MSE is in fact, a derivation of MARPE, specifically one pioneered very recently and is thus in it’s infancy...this explains the current scarcity of the treatment.

•MSE is so bone-borne that it notably widens the zygomatic complex in before and after ct scans. No tooth-borne appliance will ever achieve this in adults. However, if all you want is cosmetic changes to zygomatic width—you might as well get ZSO, implants, or fillers. If you want some form of deep structural change as an Adult, MSE + Mewing/Myofunctional Therapy afterwords is the way to go.

•Just an FYI because I keep seeing it debated: In Adults, MSE does not seem to increase IPD at all. I say this after having superimposed MSE before and afters, with the pupils overlapping perfectly.

Any way you could share those superimpositions of MSE before/afters? Or even just the pics themselves.

 

[GetThatBread]

Can Copes Device give you better under eye support? I was hoping to use his device and then opt out for MSE. In theory, mewing can split the suture but it takes forever so with much more applied force I think a facepuller could yield you some nice results in the eye area but not so much so that your entire facial structure changes

 

[softLoverr]

You can use a teeth anchored facepuller and still get results (http://www.facepulling.com/adult-maxillary-protraction-a-case-study/), but with the sutures split and bone anchoring, better results will be achieved.

I cant really tell if her maxilla as a whole moved forward or just the alveolar ridge. Do you think she achieved whole midface movement?

 

[Golden Glass]

Any way you could share those superimpositions of MSE before/afters? Or even just the pics themselves.

For some reason the file is now unreadable but I can easily create a superimposition or two again tomorrow and post it here.

This is what I meant, the maxilla being so expanded to the point it almost looks like the teeth turn backwards a bit and how the maxillary bone is protruding further forwards:

•Do you mean the teeth on the sides of the upper arch are tilting inwards?

•And you’re referring to the fact that the front teeth seem to protrude more due to a longer maxilla from “back to front” right?

 

[Darkstrand]

I'm gonna contact a maxillofacial surgeon and ask if it's possible to surgically loosen sutures, so the MSE also Expands IPD (tackled this topic in me newest Thread)

I'm gonna contact a maxillofacial surgeon and ask if it's possible to surgically loosen sutures, so the MSE also Expands IPD (tackled this topic in me newest Thread)

Because if you look at "Alien Models" like Barrett and O'pry how wide their noses are between their eyes

 

[poonkiller9000]

hard mewing is better.

 

[Pinhead]

•I typed that up myself just now. I’m supposed to get MSE some time within the next 2 years but have to do it in concordance with bimax to bring my maxilla up and forwards as well as fix slight canted jaws. I could either do MSE before surgery (which would mean very soon) or after, but I believe MSE would be best after surgery. I have to figure out the logistics in the coming months.

•Do you have any examples of this alveolar ridge phenomenon in male models?


I personally have no idea how effective facepulling is, but any chances of effectiveness would be increased by doing it with an MSE installed, since the Anchorage is bone-borne.

If one could benefit from both MSE + Bimax do you think you need to coordinate treatment with MSE ortho + bimax surgeon?

In theory if you expand the maxilla with MSE to match the lower or get lower palate expansion and expand them to 45-50mm range (ideal) and get a perfect occlusion you could slot yourself in for surgery first (since occlusion is sorted) no?

Also why do you think MSE after bimax would be better instead of before?