MSE Munich, Christoph Moschik

[forwardgrowth]

I finally start jfl
Small step but i have to start somewhere

You are paying no jewed price , invaslign is also at great rate. 1cm will have huge improvement

 

[Deleted member 3990]

You are paying no jewed price , invaslign is also at great rate. 1cm will have huge improvement

I wont get 1cm though, neither will I get invisalign

I already have braces and I will just continue with that treatment after MSE

 

[Copemaxxing]

He doubts that I can get face mask? Did you ask him how my forward growth is did he mention it or something

 

[Deleted member 3990]

He doubts that I can get face mask? Did you ask him how my forward growth is did he mention it or something

hab ihm gefragt ob er dein Röntgen anschauen kann
"Also es ist ... hmm ... nähmlich ..."
Ich: "Er hat short face syndrome-"
" Hahaha ja so kann mans sagen"
etc.

 

[curryslayerordeath]

good luck! interesting to see that crazy price variations between eu and us jfl

why do u have an issue with teeth tipping expanders on the lower arch tho? less harsh on tmj and still fixes bite

 

[Deleted member 3990]

good luck! interesting to see that crazy price variations between eu and us jfl

why do u have an issue with teeth tipping expanders on the lower arch tho? less harsh on tmj and still fixes bite

I will talk about it again
I want 1 cm, otherwise I would instantly go to Andrei when I can

 

[Copemaxxing]

hab ihm gefragt ob er dein Röntgen anschauen kann
"Also es ist ... hmm ... nähmlich ..."
Ich: "Er hat short face syndrome-"
" Hahaha ja so kann mans sagen"
etc.

Shit hat er gelacht? Also muss ich ja eine ziemlich ausgeprägt form haben. Was hat er noch gesagt? Obs gut oder schlecht ist usw

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Shit hat er gelacht? Also muss ich ja eine ziemlich ausgeprägt form haben. Was hat er noch gesagt? Obs gut oder schlecht ist usw

kp was er noch genaues gesagt hat. Das war mehr kieferorthopäden Lingo als wie kieferchirurgen Lingo
Bin da nicht so stark

 

[Deleted member 3020]

My friend, concerning the FM treatment, if you are not a Class III bite, you may need to have only 4mm of sagittal displacement, then wait for the mandible to rotate forward. To pull more forward. Please look in dms for further details.

 

[Deleted member 3990]

My friend, concerning the FM treatment, if you are not a Class III bite, you may need to have only 4mm of sagittal displacement, then wait for the mandible to rotate forward. To pull more forward. Please look in dms for further details.

you think I didnt know this ?
I talked about it with him

 

[Deleted member 3020]

you think I didnt know this ?
I talked about it with him

You think ur funny? Tell me more in dms then

 

[Deleted member 3020]

I just read the whole thread and did you or your ortho not mention upper molar lingual torquing and/or lower molar buccal uprighting? Or even buccal flaring? You can expand a lot more...

 

[LebenistneHure]

Do you know if anyone offers MSE in Vienna?

 

[Deleted member 3990]

I just read the whole thread and did you or your ortho not mention upper molar lingual torquing and/or lower molar buccal uprighting? Or even buccal flaring? You can expand a lot more...

No, but thanks that you mentioned it

 

[Incoming]

My friend, concerning the FM treatment, if you are not a Class III bite, you may need to have only 4mm of sagittal displacement, then wait for the mandible to rotate forward. To pull more forward. Please look in dms for further details.

Can you elab on this?

 

[randomguy1235]

Time: he said fast expansion might be 3-4 weeks fast expansion(depends on suture split), and 9-12 months braces (which I already have)

Good post bro but, in all my research, "slow" expansion of .16 mm per day (1mm per week) leads to more skeletal changes in the entire midface rather than damaging your bones and limiting total skeletal expansion through rapid (1 mm/day) expansion. Any thoughts?

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Good post bro but, in all my research, "slow" expansion of .16 mm per day (1mm per week) leads to more skeletal changes in the entire midface rather than damaging your bones and limiting total skeletal expansion through rapid (1 mm/day) expansion. Any thoughts?

I had my online-consultation today and we agreed that we will do slow expansion, starting Thursday (in a week).

Unfortunately I wasn't able to bargain more expansion and I am disappointed that it only stays 6 mm.
But on the other hand, I planned to do it twice anyway.

Theoretically, I could just expand 1 cm myself. What should he do? Pick a fight with me? Sue me?
Or is he preparing the device like that, so that it caps at around 6mm ?

 

[Deleted member 3990]

And of his knowledge, there are no real official MSE-Practitioners in Germany/Austria. There may be some, but he does not know them.

But he knows someone in Italy

Il centro - Centro Odontoiatrico Cantarella

www.cantarellaodontoiatria.it

 

[randomguy1235]

I had my online-consultation today and we agreed that we will do slow expansion, starting Thursday (in a week).

Unfortunately I wasn't able to bargain more expansion and I am disappointed that it only stays 6 mm.
But on the other hand, I planned to do it twice anyway.

Theoretically, I could just expand 1 cm myself. What should he do? Pick a fight with me? Sue me?
Or is he preparing the device like that, so that it caps at around 6mm ?

Yes bro I agree with you expanding more yourself. Only 6 mm is criminal with your IMW. Ancient humans had IMW in the low 50s, so he's just being very conservative for seemingly no reason

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Yes bro I agree with you expanding more yourself. Only 6 mm is criminal with your IMW. Ancient humans had IMW is the low 50s, so he's just being very conservative for seemingly no reason

I would be interested what his reaction would be
considering that I will get a 2nd MSE anyway

Maybe he charges more costs to give me a hyrax

 

[Lev Peshkov]

No pics no care

 

[curryslayerordeath]

I had my online-consultation today and we agreed that we will do slow expansion, starting Thursday (in a week).

Unfortunately I wasn't able to bargain more expansion and I am disappointed that it only stays 6 mm.
But on the other hand, I planned to do it twice anyway.

Theoretically, I could just expand 1 cm myself. What should he do? Pick a fight with me? Sue me?
Or is he preparing the device like that, so that it caps at around 6mm ?

there are 8, 10, and 12 mm models of the device (based on the screw) so even if u wish to, you cant expand more than the capability of the model you are given

 

[curryslayerordeath]

Good post bro but, in all my research, "slow" expansion of .16 mm per day (1mm per week) leads to more skeletal changes in the entire midface rather than damaging your bones and limiting total skeletal expansion through rapid (1 mm/day) expansion. Any thoughts?

where did you find this? i remember seeing a video by moon that was concluding the opposite.

 

[randomguy1235]

where did you find this? i remember seeing a video by moon that was concluding the opposite.

Won Moons MSE (Maxillary Skeletal Expander) Appliance is the...

I have not seen any other appliance that will give as good results as this in this short amount of time. This MSE literally is the best option for peo...

the-great-work.org

Whole Body Breathing Community

Whole Body Breathing Discussion Board

the-great-work.org

Seems to be some conflicting ideas and reports. Assuming you're just getting MSE without MSDO and weakening other facial sutures, then I'd assume "rapid" expansion would result in more skeletal changes. However, with MSDO and weakening of facial skeleton sutures (via corticopuncture and strategic suture cuts on the zygomatic processes etc) I think "slow" ( .16 mm per day) would produce more skeletal changes.

Read through some of the links and see if you can find anything definitive

 

[Deleted member 3990]

there are 8, 10, and 12 mm models of the device (based on the screw) so even if u wish to, you cant expand more than the capability of the model you are given

I knew that there were two versions, but didnt know about the 8 mm one tbh

 

[randomguy1235]

there are 8, 10, and 12 mm models of the device (based on the screw) so even if u wish to, you cant expand more than the capability of the model you are given

I'm planning to expand 20+ mm MSE + MSDO and already had my ortho coordinate with Dr. Andrei (all parties agreed and confirmed). How would they expand past 12 mm? By reattaching MSE device in new position?

 

[curryslayerordeath]

Won Moons MSE (Maxillary Skeletal Expander) Appliance is the...

I have not seen any other appliance that will give as good results as this in this short amount of time. This MSE literally is the best option for peo...

the-great-work.org

Whole Body Breathing Community

Whole Body Breathing Discussion Board

the-great-work.org

I believe people from the TGW make that statement towards tooth-borne expanders or mewing, since its much less likely that the palatal suture would split/weaken. Rapid movement with that could lead to the molars being pushed out without any palate changes, but that's different from the screws in the MSE appliance.

At 1:00 in the video you linked, it seems to indicate the same thing, which is supported in this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5484271/

Seems to be some conflicting ideas and reports. Assuming you're just getting MSE without MSDO and weakening other facial sutures, then I'd assume "rapid" expansion would result in more skeletal changes.

There are no sutures along the mandible and the only connection that MSDO (or another thing placed on the mandible) would have to the rest of the face is through the TMJ. Most of the bottleneck on skeletal changes is through the zygomaxillary sutures, so this shouldn't affect it at all?

However, with MSDO and weakening of facial skeleton sutures (via corticopuncture and strategic suture cuts on the zygomatic processes etc) I think "slow" ( .16 mm per day) would produce more skeletal changes.

Read through some of the links and see if you can find anything definitive

Elab abt cuts on the zygomatic processes

I'm planning to expand 20+ mm MSE + MSDO and already had my ortho coordinate with Dr. Andrei (all parties agreed and confirmed). How would they expand past 12 mm? By reattaching MSE device in new position?

prob wait for the bone gap to fully heal and reinstall a new appliance

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Can you elab on this?

Actually not quite sure anymore, I just found a post on great works by varbrah that says if the maxilla forward displacement is too much during pulling, the mandible can’t follow and I asked Sergio and he mentioned the max you can pull is 4mm while still having the mandible follow. But idk tbh I just decided to follow exactly my doctors orders and in his hands. Btw I just woke up so sorry for the messy reply

 

[randomguy1235]

I believe people from the TGW make that statement towards tooth-borne expanders or mewing, since its much less likely that the palatal suture would split/weaken. Rapid movement with that could lead to the molars being pushed out without any palate changes, but that's different from the screws in the MSE appliance.

At 1:00 in the video you linked, it seems to indicate the same thing, which is supported in this study: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5484271/

Those threads I linked you were mostly people referring to MSE, but I very much recall a thread where an extremely experienced and knowledgeable user who's interviewed Dr. Won Moon and many surgeons about MSE came to the conclusion that "slow" (.16 mm/day) expansion results in optimal skeletal changes. I know for a fact it's somewhere on TGW. I searched "MSE slow expansion" or something on Google to find it, wish I saved it cause I can't find it now

EDIT: Found it

"Not true. Slower expansion is more successful for adults. This is a quote from Won Moon when I interviewed him, as well as the opinion of Dr. Richard Ting, leading MSE provider in California.

I am a mature adult and decided to do MSE slow after consultation with 5 MSE providers (including Won Moon). 1 turn per day.

I split in three weeks. Anything more than that would have been overkill and a violence to my body: and probably would have failed. It fails because your buttressing bones (cheekbones etc) resist this violence to push them apart. It made sense to me to gently nudge them apart.

Warning with MSE: the suture between your eyes gets wider and one documented result can be change in vision. I can vouch for that. Today I feel I see "double" and have vertigo. Waiting to see if it settles down.

Note: key face changes: 1) bulging cheekbones (ok these are fine) 2) longer face (not fine) 3) slightly more assymetrical (the split is always assymetrical and how extreme this is varies from person to person)."

There are no sutures along the mandible and the only connection that MSDO (or another thing placed on the mandible) would have to the rest of the face is through the TMJ. Most of the bottleneck on skeletal changes is through the zygomaxillary sutures, so this shouldn't affect it at all?

I know there are no lower mandible sutures, but the midface can only grow so much without the lower jaw expanding as well. Simultaneous lower jaw expansion will ensure that the facial skeleton will experience much less resistance to bony expansion assuming the zygomatic structures are weakened too.

Elab abt cuts on the zygomatic processes

These are hypothetical ideas I've gotten from @retard and researching on various forums. Basically you would ask the surgeon to weaken the midpalatal suture and skeletal structures (areas near the typical MLF III cuts) to allow for unimpeded expansion of the enitre midface. How most people undergo MSE now (including with the case of Ronald) is flawed because an adult's facial skeleton provides too much resistance to midface expansion. This resulted in Ronald growing his midface asymmetrically and perhaps losing substantial skeletal changes (conjecture on my part but that's why I'm asking for input ITT).

 

[Incoming]

Actually not quite sure anymore, I just found a post on great works by varbrah that says if the maxilla forward displacement is too much during pulling, the mandible can’t follow and I asked Sergio and he mentioned the max you can pull is 4mm while still having the mandible follow. But idk tbh I just decided to follow exactly my doctors orders and in his hands. Btw I just woke up so sorry for the messy reply

Did you have the mse installed yet? Btw how old are you

 

[Deleted member 3020]

Did you have the mse installed yet? Btw how old are you

my doctor wanted a new prescription order on my MSE for the ortho lab, so they said they’re gonna call me once they have it ready for me and he also talked to some colleagues about my case so I am ready for any lifefuel or suicide fuel.i will update on a new thread once I finally have mse and my fm. I am 15 years old

 

[Deleted member 3990]

once I finally have mse and my fm

over for my conversative Doc

 

[Deleted member 3020]

over for my conversative Doc

Btw most of the time orthos who use mse use 12mm MSEs, because they are a lot easier to use and have a higher success rate. So just saying, you can probably get more than 6mm on your own. And for the facemask, you can actually just order a FM online and use rubber bands to wrap around the buccal
tubes

But I don’t exactly know if these options are safe tbh, better to have ortho assistance I guess, just a suggestion

 

[FACEandDnB]

Btw most of the time orthos who use mse use 12mm MSEs, because they are a lot easier to use and have a higher success rate. So just saying, you can probably get more than 6mm on your own. And for the facemask, you can actually just order a FM online and use rubber bands to wrap around the buccal
tubes
View attachment 550634

But I don’t exactly know if these options are safe tbh, better to have ortho assistance I guess, just a suggestion

and are these tubes in all mse's or only certain ones which facilitate FMs?

 

[Deleted member 3020]

and are these tubes in all mse's or only certain ones which facilitate FMs?

The ones who facilitate FMs have hooks such as this

The tubes are on all MSEs that use molar bands, which most use

 

[Deleted member 3990]

Btw most of the time orthos who use mse use 12mm MSEs, because they are a lot easier to use and have a higher success rate. So just saying, you can probably get more than 6mm on your own. And for the facemask, you can actually just order a FM online and use rubber bands to wrap around the buccal
tubes
View attachment 550634

But I don’t exactly know if these options are safe tbh, better to have ortho assistance I guess, just a suggestion

well, he doesnt like to give me more
have to accept that I will need a second MSE

 

[forwardgrowth]

I had my online-consultation today and we agreed that we will do slow expansion, starting Thursday (in a week).

Unfortunately I wasn't able to bargain more expansion and I am disappointed that it only stays 6 mm.
But on the other hand, I planned to do it twice anyway.

Theoretically, I could just expand 1 cm myself. What should he do? Pick a fight with me? Sue me?
Or is he preparing the device like that, so that it caps at around 6mm ?

You know what to do