[Blackpill] Why MSE along facepulling will probably result in shitty results

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Slyfex8

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Because of the location of the microimplants.

Look at this paper: https://scinapse.io/papers/1603230182

From this paper this is the typical maxilla displacement resulting from a microimplant assisted palate expander like MSE, Hyrax using a facepuller at a -30 degrees angle:

figure-4.jpg


figure-12.jpg


Look at how insignifiant is the forward displacement and how it displace your maxilla downward.

Now look at the displacement if the microimplant was placed in a better location with a pulling angle of -15 degrees (Simulation C, picture on the right on the second picture) :

figure-5.jpg
figure-13 (1).jpg


Isn't it better, look at how signifiant is the forward displacement, look at how the maxilla rotate ccw.
 
CopeAndRope

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If you pull from that position, there's a risk only the outer part of your maxilla will move forward, causing undesired prognathism.
 
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Slyfex8

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If you pull from that position, there's a risk only the outer part of your maxilla will move forward, causing undesired prognathism.
From where you deduce this?
 
betamanlet

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If you pull from that position, there's a risk only the outer part of your maxilla will move forward, causing undesired prognathism.
See pic. The maxilla can ONLY grow and expand downwards. Alveolar process can of course be shaped however you want, but the bone itself can grow to only one direction, as predetermined by the direction of its sutures.
972-sutures.jpg
 
CopeAndRope

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From where you deduce this?
Keep in mind, this is my hypothesis, I don't have any studies to back this claim.

What I think is that it's really easy to displace the outer part of the maxilla because it's mot "anchored" and surrounded by other bones like the inner part. We aim to pull all the bones structure around the maxilla when we pull, otherwise, you'll get the look of the typical Negroid phenotype.

See pic. The maxilla can ONLY grow and expand downwards. Alveolar process can of course be shaped however you want, but the bone itself can grow to only one direction, as predetermined by the direction of its sutures.
View attachment 177520
If that is true then pulling at 30 degrees is still the right thing to do because you're only inducing growth in the lower part of the sutures, thus creating a CCW maxillary rotation.
 
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Slyfex8

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Keep in mind, this is my hypothesis, I don't have any studies to back this claim.

What I think is that it's really easy to displace the outer part of the maxilla because it's mot "anchored" and surrounded by other bones like the inner part. We aim to pull all the bones structure around the maxilla when we pull, otherwise, you'll get the look of the typical Negroid phenotype.


If that is true then pulling at 30 degrees is still the right thing to do because you're only inducing growth in the lower part of the sutures, thus creating a CCW maxillary rotation.
I was tempted to think that at first but after looking the stress area it kinda changed my mind.

figure-9.jpg
figure-8.jpg


What do you think of that ?
 
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Slyfex8

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Can you paste that study here? I don't want to sign up there. I'll read it and give you a more informed opinion.
You can’t download the pdf without sign up on the link I sent in the main post of this thread?
 
betamanlet

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If that is true then pulling at 30 degrees is still the right thing to do because you're only inducing growth in the lower part of the sutures, thus creating a CCW maxillary rotation.
I get what you're trying to achieve, but that is not bound to happen. It could just as likely result in the same growth direction that would otherwise occur by separating each circummaxillary suture equally, only in a less complete manner.
 
CopeAndRope

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I get what you're trying to achieve, but that is not bound to happen. It could just as likely result in the same growth direction that would otherwise occur by separating each circummaxillary suture equally, only in a less complete manner.
We are talking here like the bones were non-malleable objects that can't be warped under any force. And that's not true.
 
betamanlet

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We are talking here like the bones were non-malleable objects that can't be warped under any force. And that's not true.
Yes, in that case you would not be achieving maxillary rotation, but remodeling. I.e. rather than moving the bone, it would simply assume a new shape. The question is: could there be unpredictable differences between remodeling and sutural growth, as far as the aesthetic-functional outcome is concerned? Likely any change would be a mixture of both in an unforeseeable ratio. How to be sure that this ratio will not turn out to be particularly unfavorable?
 
CopeAndRope

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Yes, in that case you would not be achieving maxillary rotation, but remodeling. I.e. rather than moving the bone, it would simply assume a new shape. The question is: could there be unpredictable differences between remodeling and sutural growth, as far as the aesthetic-functional outcome is concerned? Likely any change would be a mixture of both in an unforeseeable ratio. How to be sure that this ratio will not turn out to be particularly unfavorable?
Very good point. That's why my intra-ora appliance covers completely and evenly the upper palate, to avoid causing aesthetic malformations.
1575046531900.png

Regarding the mse, I'm not sure.

So, looking at the simulations, they haven't tried to pull at +30 degrees from a position close to the 2nd molars.
They instead did it from the canines line. And the result is a successful CCW, regardless of the sutures.
1575046953253.png
 
GoMadAndSTFU

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Can you guys make a resume for non english cels ?
 
diggbicc

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@CopeAndRope @betamanlet

See, bio-mechanics are very different from solid mechanics. If you apply a larger force to something like steel or iron, it will deform faster. But in the case of bones more force!= more movement. Hard forces induce a signal that makes the extracellular matrix to become rigid and the osteocytes to anchor tighter, while soft forces that fall below this signal transduction threshold don't make the matrix tense up allowing it to move without locking up.
so with hard forces you can compress, elongate or stretch, but with soft forces you can translate bone into new positions while making them grow via proliferation signals to the sutures.
 
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Slyfex8

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Very good point. That's why my intra-ora appliance covers completely and evenly the upper palate, to avoid causing aesthetic malformations.
View attachment 177573
Regarding the mse, I'm not sure.


So, looking at the simulations, they haven't tried to pull at +30 degrees from a position close to the 2nd molars.
They instead did it from the canines line. And the result is a successful CCW, regardless of the sutures.
View attachment 177576
Now how we are supposed to replicate this in real life?

Also in the study there are saying "However, it is important to note that upward and posterior displacement will restrict maxillary growth, but will not necessarily impact it, since growth cannot be reversed or undone." wouldn't it means that ccw is not really possible and that the simulations in the study are not really applicable ?

@betamanlet
 
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GetThatBread

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Yes, in that case you would not be achieving maxillary rotation, but remodeling. I.e. rather than moving the bone, it would simply assume a new shape. The question is: could there be unpredictable differences between remodeling and sutural growth, as far as the aesthetic-functional outcome is concerned? Likely any change would be a mixture of both in an unforeseeable ratio. How to be sure that this ratio will not turn out to be particularly unfavorable?
So in that case does mewing remodel the bones instead of add forward growth?
 
betamanlet

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@Slyfex8 Well, I've personally never seen someone achieve what could be called maxillary CCW rotation. Maxillary expansion, sutural growth and alveolar growth almost always describe the changes better. Even in Mew's patients the maxilla as a whole does not really appear to rotate:

ChildCFD.gif

35y35y.gif

581-6530252823771272523683145751928027957166080o.jpg


In each of these there have been clear changes, but has the maxilla rotated, or even moved?

@CopeAndRope @betamanlet

See, bio-mechanics are very different from solid mechanics. If you apply a larger force to something like steel or iron, it will deform faster. But in the case of bones more force!= more movement. Hard forces induce a signal that makes the extracellular matrix to become rigid and the osteocytes to anchor tighter, while soft forces that fall below this signal transduction threshold don't make the matrix tense up allowing it to move without locking up.
so with hard forces you can compress, elongate or stretch, but with soft forces you can translate bone into new positions while making them grow via proliferation signals to the sutures.
It's one thing for bone to resist sudden bursts of force, the kind that chewing for example creates. But what about sustained high force? I'm wondering whether it is really the intensity of force or lack of sustain that the bone resists.
So in that case does mewing remodel the bones instead of add forward growth?
At the very least, mewing reshapes the alveolar ridge. Secondly, it can expand the maxilla through the mid-palatal suture if it's loose enough. As far as I know, many of the circummaxillary sutures stay open longer than the mid-palatal suture, which would mean that sutural growth of the mid-face is possible even as an adult (zygomatic area is usually the easiest area to impact with tongue posture). In short, it's varying degrees of both.
 
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cutecel

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@Slyfex8 Well, I've personally never seen someone achieve what could be called maxillary CCW rotation. Maxillary expansion, sutural growth and alveolar growth almost always describe the changes better. Even in Mew's patients the maxilla as a whole does not really appear to rotate:

View attachment 177616
View attachment 177618
View attachment 177620

In each of these there have been clear changes, but has the maxilla rotated, or even moved?


It's one thing for bone to resist sudden bursts of force, the kind that chewing for example creates. But what about sustained high force? I'm wondering whether it is really the intensity of force or lack of sustain that the bone resists.

At the very least, mewing reshapes the alveolar ridge. Secondly, it can expand the maxilla through the mid-palatal suture if it's loose enough. As far as I know, many of the circummaxillary sutures stay open longer than the mid-palatal suture, which would mean that sutural growth of the mid-face is possible even as an adult (zygomatic area is usually the easiest area to impact with tongue posture). In short, it's varying degrees of both.
What procedures did picture number 3 receive?
 
betamanlet

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What procedures did picture number 3 receive?
All of them are mewing results. Superimposing the pics shows that his changes are actually much subtler than it first seems:
.
r1f1.gif
 
betamanlet

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That guy legit just lost bodyfat and got a better camera
Look at the changing shapes of chin and philtrum. Submental change is attributable to head tilt and elevated hyoid.

The lip change is pretty interesting, seems to be a large reduction in nasolabial angle.
True. It looks like her alveolar process has developed forward.
 
reptiles

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Keep in mind, this is my hypothesis, I don't have any studies to back this claim.

What I think is that it's really easy to displace the outer part of the maxilla because it's mot "anchored" and surrounded by other bones like the inner part. We aim to pull all the bones structure around the maxilla when we pull, otherwise, you'll get the look of the typical Negroid phenotype.


If that is true then pulling at 30 degrees is still the right thing to do because you're only inducing growth in the lower part of the sutures, thus creating a CCW maxillary rotation.



This may sound like a cope but could it change change for reaserach purposes you know
Keep in mind, this is my hypothesis, I don't have any studies to back this claim.

What I think is that it's really easy to displace the outer part of the maxilla because it's mot "anchored" and surrounded by other bones like the inner part. We aim to pull all the bones structure around the maxilla when we pull, otherwise, you'll get the look of the typical Negroid phenotype.


If that is true then pulling at 30 degrees is still the right thing to do because you're only inducing growth in the lower part of the sutures, thus creating a CCW maxillary rotation.



This may sound like a cope but could it change race for reaserach purposes you know
 
cutecel

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CopeAndRope

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@Slyfex8
It's one thing for bone to resist sudden bursts of force, the kind that chewing for example creates. But what about sustained high force? I'm wondering whether it is really the intensity of force or lack of sustain that the bone resists.

At the very least, mewing reshapes the alveolar ridge. Secondly, it can expand the maxilla through the mid-palatal suture if it's loose enough. As far as I know, many of the circummaxillary sutures stay open longer than the mid-palatal suture, which would mean that sutural growth of the mid-face is possible even as an adult (zygomatic area is usually the easiest area to impact with tongue posture). In short, it's varying degrees of both.
You're high IQ bro. Tag me in your future threads, alright?

This may sound like a cope but could it change change for reaserach purposes you know





This may sound like a cope but could it change race for reaserach purposes you know
You can't change race, but I guess you can aesthetically come close to certain phenotypes.
 
reptiles

reptiles

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You're high IQ bro. Tag me in your future threads, alright?


You can't change race, but I guess you can aesthetically come close to certain phenotypes.



Oh then it's over man this is some sad shit but thanks for the info
 
chadpreetinthemaking

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@Slyfex8 Well, I've personally never seen someone achieve what could be called maxillary CCW rotation. Maxillary expansion, sutural growth and alveolar growth almost always describe the changes better. Even in Mew's patients the maxilla as a whole does not really appear to rotate:

View attachment 177616
View attachment 177618
View attachment 177620

In each of these there have been clear changes, but has the maxilla rotated, or even moved?


It's one thing for bone to resist sudden bursts of force, the kind that chewing for example creates. But what about sustained high force? I'm wondering whether it is really the intensity of force or lack of sustain that the bone resists.

At the very least, mewing reshapes the alveolar ridge. Secondly, it can expand the maxilla through the mid-palatal suture if it's loose enough. As far as I know, many of the circummaxillary sutures stay open longer than the mid-palatal suture, which would mean that sutural growth of the mid-face is possible even as an adult (zygomatic area is usually the easiest area to impact with tongue posture). In short, it's varying degrees of both.
What is mew's deal? Is he a maxfac, what does he actually know?
 
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varbrah

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